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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#117326: May 5th 2018 at 9:13:31 AM

And a potholed Monty.

  • Death Sentence: The depraved comedian, David "Monty" Montgomery, becomes infected with the G+ virus, giving him six months to live but granting him hypnotic and telekinetic powers, which he decides to spend tormenting the planet. A Serial Rapist, Monty uses his powers to force a nun to sleep with him, before going on to rape and murder the Queen of England, telekinetically shattering the skulls of all members of the Royal Family before proclaiming himself King of England. Forcing hundreds of soldiers to kill themselves, Monty also kills the Prime Minister to totally rule over England. Via public broadcast, Monty forces millions to engage in a variety of depraved pursuits and blows up the heads of a crowd full of people for the crime of annoying him. When a naval fleet is sent to deal with him, Monty uses his now-extended abilities to murder over one million people in the city—children not spared—before hypnotizing the naval captain into raping one of his own men and making the armada wipe itself out. So vile are his actions that he necessitates a nuclear weapon being dropped on London, and desiring nothing but death and destruction, Monty admits that even the millions of deaths aren't enough to satisfy his depraved appetites.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#117327: May 5th 2018 at 9:15:01 AM

Yes to Seth and Gorzi, but no to Albert Fish, as downright wrong as it feels to say.

In the meantime? Last night I got through half of Black Lightning and plan on finishing the rest tonight, so expect an effortpost either late, late tonight or first thing tomorrow.

YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#117328: May 5th 2018 at 9:19:34 AM

Does anyone else want to reserve Trust?

edited 5th May '18 9:20:05 AM by YamiVizziniX

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#117329: May 5th 2018 at 9:34:02 AM

Overlord, don't bother torturing yourself.

naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#117330: May 5th 2018 at 9:47:03 AM

So this was brought up much much earlier in this thread (original post here, but I don't think it was discussed enough, and the posts predates the format we use now. I don't think Akio Ohtori of Revolutionary Girl Utena is a Complete Monster. The example was rewritten in this post, but some dissent in this post wasn't really taken into account. Given what a Mind Screw the series is, and how much is open for interpretation, I don't think it's at all clear cut.

Let's be clear, Akio is not a good guy. He is a rapist, incredibly manipulative, and imprisoned his sister Anthy's soul in a realm where she is eternally tortured. However, he violates No sympathetic backstory/moral justification in a few ways:

  • Akio is the fallen version of Dios, the Big Good of the series (who may or may not exist any more). In the parable of Dios, Dios was an All-Loving Hero who was utterly unappreciated by the people he saved, and his sister imprisoned him in a castle either out of jealosy or to save him from the assaults of his ungrateful recipients of help. Of course, it's unclear how much of this story literally applies to Akio. It's implied that the way Akio is is an inevitable or hard to avoid consequence of trying to be an Ideal Hero, which is actually impossible.
  • Anthy, while ultimately sympathetic, is portrayed as going along with many of his assaults and schemes. While he manipulates her, she also manipulates him, and enjoys tormenting him when possible. For some, this may cross into Asshole Victim or Kick The Son Of A Bitch territory.
  • Akio manipulates everyone, including his sister, in order to achieve Revolution and free himself from the metaphysical prison he is trapped in, which in one way or another is the same goal as everyone else in the series.
Probably for these reasons, Cry for the Devil is listed on the show's YMMV page.

Additionally, Akio is a major Fanservice character, and gets a lot of Draco in Leather Pants treatment. I think all of this should disqualify him.

edited 5th May '18 9:47:51 AM by naturalironist

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#117331: May 5th 2018 at 9:48:18 AM

[up][up] Yeah, I like this thread, but I have my limits. TMNT III is not even bad is a fun or delightful way, its just bad. Anyone who wants to look at Walker can be my guest, but its not a fun film.

edited 5th May '18 9:49:14 AM by Overlord

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#117332: May 5th 2018 at 9:51:44 AM

Anyone mind if I actually take a second whack at Monty myself? Given he was one of mine, I'd prefer doing the edits myself and I should be able to once I get back from Infinity War today. Nobody counts in Death Sentence, by the way.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#117333: May 5th 2018 at 9:53:30 AM

[up][up][up]No offence but how does Draco in Leather Pants make you exempt from Complete Monster. Plenty of CM's get this treatment and that doesnt make them any less of a monster.

edited 5th May '18 9:53:49 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#117334: May 5th 2018 at 9:54:21 AM

I’m going to address all that about Akio as soon as I’m home because it doesn’t remotely DQ him

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#117335: May 5th 2018 at 9:54:25 AM

-pops up after hearing TMNT-

YES! I will gladly rewatch TMNT III to see if Walker counts! :D

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#117336: May 5th 2018 at 9:56:21 AM

[up]Is that a joke or is this like realjackieboy watching legend of chun-li and youre actually going to take the hit and watch it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#117337: May 5th 2018 at 9:56:58 AM

@ Scraggle, by all means, please do, I have a high level of respect for your writing and would hate to take a candidate that means something to you.

Edit: Elfen asked me to do a rewrite of Jatice for him so here's what I've got:

  • Akashic Records of Bastard Magic Instructor: Former Imperial Court Mage Guard Jatice Lowfan was stripped of his position for using Angel's Dust—a drug which horrifically turned its user into an easily controlled, zombie-like creature—to control innocents into assassinating rivals in the Imperial Court Corps and nobles. Discovered by Glenn Radars, Jatice has his puppets murder Glenn's only friend out of spite, which he later taunts him about. Murdering a man, Jatice takes his identity and coerces Glenn's student Sistine into marrying him, while continuing to taunt Glenn.

edited 5th May '18 10:23:17 AM by 43110

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#117338: May 5th 2018 at 9:58:10 AM

Oh, and Akio? The "fallen hero" thing is shown to fall apart. Ahio at the end is a narcissistic monster no matter how you slice it. Him being a Draco in Leather Pants, by the way? That's not a point against him. At all. It doesn't matter if the fanbase glamorizes him, we look at him from an in-universe perspective and he's ultimately not treated as remotely sympathetic by the end.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#117339: May 5th 2018 at 9:58:57 AM

@miraculous: NO! I am being genuinely 100% serious right now. :D

Oh my god, I have not seen the live-action TMNT films since I was a kid/pre-teen. So rewatching this movie as a grown adult is going to be fun. I genuinely feel like I'm going to like this film anyway for all the wrong reasons. And that is just fine. XD

edited 5th May '18 9:59:52 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#117340: May 5th 2018 at 10:11:04 AM

Scraggle: Go for it. I assume you mean Death Sentence: London? No surprise there, considering how bad Monty is.

[down] Which candidate? And please tell me "Griffith did nothing wrong" is just a meme and not an actual thing.

edited 5th May '18 10:13:13 AM by ACW

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#117341: May 5th 2018 at 10:11:42 AM

Echoing what was already said on Akio. Hell if Draco in Leather Pants was a disqualifying factor, we'd have to 20 to 30% of the list; I've seen Freddy Krueger, versions of the Joker, Mark Jefferson, even Voldemort and Bellatrix get this treatment. There's a whole movement that says "Griffith Did Nothing Wrong" and one of my favourite candidates was seemingly written as a Take That! to the DILP trope, that seemed lost on the fandom.

edited 5th May '18 10:13:07 AM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#117342: May 5th 2018 at 10:13:31 AM

[up][up][up][up] Go for it.

It seems like the only other TNMT movie we have not discussed is that cartoon movie from 2007, which I have never seen, but I did look at its wikipedia page and no one really lept out to me as counting from that.

edited 5th May '18 10:14:25 AM by Overlord

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#117343: May 5th 2018 at 10:19:00 AM

[up] No one from that movie counted. Max Winters actually has been alive for hundreds of years and is trying to end his immortality; he doesn't wanna use the thirteen monsters that were unleashed to take over the world or do anything nefarious, from what I remember. The Stone Generals.......exist.

edited 5th May '18 10:19:46 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#117344: May 5th 2018 at 10:20:49 AM

[up][up]No one counts in the 2007 movie which I have watched (Uh its not the worst thing ever but its not my favorite TMNT thing either),the Big Bad is a Well-Intentioned Extremist,the 13 monsters get no characterization beyond snarling beasts and well the Big Bad's generals do betray him but there a group and no individual member stands out from the others.

EDIT : [nja] by Tyk

edited 5th May '18 10:21:36 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#117345: May 5th 2018 at 10:22:47 AM

I'm not surprised. The currently qualifiers we have are from the Darker and Edgier comics, the Darker and Edgier later seasons of the 80s cartoon, or the Darker and Edgier series from the century.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#117346: May 5th 2018 at 10:24:05 AM

[up][up][up] That's what I thought. Those Stone Generals sound like jerks, but it sounds like they are more a group then individual characters.

[up] Well the thing about TNMT as a franchise is the tone can go from goofy to dark or vice versa at the drop of a hat.

edited 5th May '18 10:26:23 AM by Overlord

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#117347: May 5th 2018 at 10:30:39 AM

@43110 Thanks for the Jatice rewrite. I think it could give a great leeway in case if Akashic Records got greenlighted on Season 2 and if Jatice appears again committing new atrocities haha

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#117348: May 5th 2018 at 10:34:51 AM

Which candidate? And please tell me "Griffith did nothing wrong" is just a meme and not an actual thing.

I have see it with some insane people that does actually think like Griffith. Objetivists, people that defend Egoism as a acceptable moral system.

You know, the Griffiths IRL.

edited 5th May '18 10:35:33 AM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#117349: May 5th 2018 at 10:36:38 AM

@Overlord: Yush. Hence why I adore the 2012 incarnation so much. Seems like that series found a proper balance.

Anyway, I'll watch TMNT III later tonight when I'm back from work. Although, off the top of my head? Walker actually might not count, because I think(?) he has some pet birds he cares for. I dunno. I'll refresh my memory soon enough.

Y'know, this is actually a good thing. I still haven't seen that Batman Ninja movie; now I can spend my night watching two vastly different movies that both involve iconic heroes getting transported to feudal Japan for some reason or another.

edited 5th May '18 10:37:07 AM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#117350: May 5th 2018 at 10:37:03 AM

[up] I think the candidate in question is Theo Raeken.... However, he got cut due to last minutes of redeeming quality so yea....

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

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