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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#117301: May 4th 2018 at 11:21:26 PM

A few days ago I suggested a rewrite for Cinder from RWBY to add her Volume 5 actions. Let me try again, this time bolding my additions

  • Cinder Fall is the mysterious villain of the first three volumes. A woman who wishes to be strong, feared and powerful, Cinder recruited two young fighters named Mercury and Emerald and attacked Amber, the Fall Maiden. Defeating her, Cinder drained half her powers, leaving Amber in a coma. She then recruits the terrorist group the White Fang by massacring some of their members and forcing the rest into service. In the Vytal tournament, Cinder arranges a match between Pyrrha, who has magnetism powers, and Penny, a robot, and has Emerald use her illusion powers to make Pyrrha panic and use an attack that rips Penny into pieces. Cinder then hijacks the sound system to sow discord and fear among the people and has the White Fang attack, while also unleashing the monstrous creatures known as Grimm on the civilians. Merrily commenting how "beautiful" the carnage is, she has Mercury film it while gloating. Cinder then murders Amber to get the rest of her powers and in a fight with Pyrrha, cripples and then coldly executes the young warrior by using an arrow that burns her from the inside. While in the next two volumes she spends most of her screentime in infirm, upon recovery she takes part in the assault on Haven Academy, coercing Raven and her tribe into taking part. During which she pins down Jaune and sadistically mocks him over the death of Pyrrha, impales Weiss so Jaune will have another death on his conscience, and then betrays Raven and Vernal to take the Spring Maiden powers for herself. Cruel and ambitious, Cinder leaves the kingdoms and alliances of Remnant shattered in her quest for power.

edited 5th May '18 4:35:16 PM by randomtroper89

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#117302: May 4th 2018 at 11:59:18 PM

[tup] Farrow.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#117303: May 5th 2018 at 12:25:52 AM

I think....I might have a candidate. Dunno, I will just give this a shot:

What is the work?

The End Of The Fucking World is an eight episode Netflix original mini series about a seventeen year old self proclaimed psychopath named James, who leaves home (via stealing his father's car, not before punching him in the face) after his girlfriend, Alyssa gets fed up with her life and convinces him to skip town with her (although James reason for tagging along was simply to get closer to killing her as he originally planned).

'"'Who is he? What does he do?'''

Now on to the candidate.

Clive Koch is an author who James and Alyssa break into house (while unoccupied) after James crashes his father's car into a tree.

When Alyssa gets upset after James gets put off by a photo of Koch while Alyssa is giving him a blowjob. She storms off and meets a man named Topher who she immediately takes to the house and goes upstairs with to have sex in attempt to make James jealous.

Distraught by this James looks around the house where he finds polaroids and a camcorder with footage of many girls Koch has sexually assaulted (10+), making it explicitly clear that the man is a Serial Rapist.

Koch returns home and suspecting a break-in, arms himself; James hides under the bed. When Koch questions Alyssa upon finding her in bed, she lies and says she is alone. Koch becomes malevolent, attempting to rape her. James stabs him in the neck with a knife, killing Koch, and saving Alyssa.

The rest of the series around James and Alyssa trying to cover up the murder James committed and avoid the authorities but we don't need to get on that.

Freudian Excuse?

None given. Raping young ladies is apparently just a fetish of his.

Played Seriously?

The series is a dark comedy that plays some crimes for laughs but the revelation of him being a Serial Rapist as well as his attempted assault on Alyssa is played for drama.

Heinous Standard?

Now this is where it gets a bit tricky. A lot of characters are assholes. The two protagonists themselves are far from saints. James is a self proclaimed psychopath who's murdered small animals, committed vandalism, robbery and was originally planning on killing Alyssa because he wanted to know how it felt to kill a human. Alyssa is also a vandal and a thief, among other things.

Though the only other character that commits sexual assault besides Koch is this middle age man named Martin who James and Alyssa hitched a ride with prior to breaking in Koch's house. Martin molested James which is nowhere near as bad as full on raping someone, 10+ people at that.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#117304: May 5th 2018 at 12:35:48 AM

Didn't we already vote this guy down?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#117305: May 5th 2018 at 12:48:28 AM

[tup]Set. [tdown]Kanako

I could have sworn we down voted Koch already. Did I miss something.

edited 5th May '18 5:55:12 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#117306: May 5th 2018 at 12:52:42 AM

[tup] to Psycho Douchebag Seth.

[tdown] to Koch

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#117307: May 5th 2018 at 12:57:00 AM

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivSenw8llok&page=4231

Oh my bad. I didn't use the search bar before I made the EP. I just assumed this was the first time it has been discussed.

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#117308: May 5th 2018 at 1:35:32 AM

[tup] Seth.

I think we can stop downvoting Koch now, folks.

Anyway, I'm gonna EP that Gavling guy later, since, unfortunately, I completely forgot what he does in his own episode just bugs me, but he is shown killing a baby in a flashback scene in the episode, and that's about what I remember...

Anyway, an episode that Gavling actually does appear in and is involved in quite alot is the episode named... "Guesthouse Pearl"? And the guy he is involved with is truly an asshole and total garbage human being.

What is the Work?

Beck is a long-running Swedish crime-thriller, surprise. Anyway, this episode is about an immigrant, supposedly accidentally, being blown up while in a Taxi Car. However, the same day, while driving in a police car, Gunvald, the secondary protagonist, accidentally runs over an innocent little girl, who is later also shown to be an immigrant. Is it a coincidence? Well, not really, no.

Who is the candidate? What does he do?

Gorzi, the Non-Action Big Bad of the episode, I really don't think there is much to write about, it's moreso what he works with and how he works with what he works with that makes him count, different from say Dag who we see the entire episode sadistically killing for fun. So, with other words, this EP is going to be short. Anyway, Gorzi is a former human trafficker (only mentioned once offscreen, but still), now human smuggler, who simply doesn't care about the smuggling and how it goes, as long as he gets the money. His methods of smuggling is that he takes vulnerable immigrants, places bombs on them which they will smuggle, and in reward, they will get to live in Sweden... illegally, and they get to Sweden by using a cruiser, and imagine if the bomb goes off....

He has complete disregard for them, admitting that he simply does not care whether or not the bomb goes off or not. At the end of the episode, he abuses one of the immigrants he was smuggling just because he didn't see where the other immigrant he was smuggling went (she ran away because the police were coming). Gunvald comes at the end, and Gorzi threatens to blow up the bomb if he shoots, which would kill all four of them. Now, in the episode, we see him smuggling roughly seven people or so.

Mitigating Factors?

The only one I could see is that he is rather affable with Gavling, which everyone in the entire series is except Gunvald, which is because everyone is terrified of Gavling's amount of power.

Heinousness

His cruel methods and overall abuse of the immigrants? Sure.

Conclusion

I'm unsure on how you'll see it, but when I watched the episode, I definitely saw him as heinous enough. It's almost like I'm underselling heinousness...

edited 5th May '18 1:53:27 AM by MenInGreyToBlak

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#117309: May 5th 2018 at 4:00:27 AM

[tup] Gorzi. A bomb smuggler? That's...unique.

BTW, has anyone read Death Sentence: London? Though considering how bad Monty is in the original, I'd be surprised if anyone counted.

edited 5th May '18 4:04:28 AM by ACW

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117310: May 5th 2018 at 4:34:11 AM

@ Fried If you are too preoccupied for anything, I would be glad to take over The Flash Season 4 for you. But only if you like wink

As for Black Lightning, yeah, Martin Proctor is a solid qualifier.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#117311: May 5th 2018 at 5:11:18 AM

[tup]Gorzi

Also yeah I read Proctor's character page and he sounds like a solid keep.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#117312: May 5th 2018 at 5:28:26 AM

[tup] Gorzi and switching to [tdown] on Kanako.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#117313: May 5th 2018 at 7:19:55 AM

Yes to Gorzi and Set

No to Kanako.

Okay so here are my write ups for Lois and Clark:

  • Thaddeus Roarke from Season 1's Honeymoon in Metropolis is an Arms Dealer and tycoon who runs a company called Apocalypse Consulting. After losing a military contract to Lex Luthor to develop a coastal defense system for the Navy, Roarke plans to sabotage Luthor's system so that the Navy will pick his system. Roarke is working with a corrupt Congress Man named Harrington who works on the The House Subcommittee on Defense and is giving Roarke information about Luthor's system. Roarke eventually reveals his scheme to Harrington, that he plans to cause a massive disruption in Luthor's system that will result in it creating a giant tidal wave, that will destroy Metropolis and several cities on the coast, which horrifies Harrington. When Roarke discovers Lois Lane and Clark Kent have been spying on him, he tries to kill them by putting a bomb in their hotel room.
  • Anonymous from Season 3's A Chip Off The Old Clark is a Master of Disguise and mercenary who works for the highest bidder. Anonymous is hired by terrorists to destroy an ongoing peace peace process between two countries, Tanzor and Fostonia. Anonymous learns of a young boy named Jesse who has some of Superman's powers and kidnaps him. Anonymous hires a hacker to hack into Tanzor's nuclear defense system and then shoots the hacker so he does not have to pay him. Anonymous has Jesse kidnap the President of the Tanzor and uses truth serum to force him to reveal Tanzor's nuclear launch codes, planning to launch a nuke at Fostonia's capital city. Lois Lane arrives and tries to trick Anonymous into surrendering by pretending to have a gun, but Anonymous tricks Jesse into pressing the launch button. Discovering that Jesse has lost his powers, Anonymous decides he is no longer useful and tries to use poison gas to kill Lois, the President and Jesse.

edited 5th May '18 7:35:45 AM by Overlord

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#117314: May 5th 2018 at 7:39:21 AM

[tup] Seth, his loyalty to Kane seems to be only out of necessity.

Watch me destroying my country
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#117315: May 5th 2018 at 7:41:33 AM

[tup] Set and Gorzai.

So having watched The Gray Man, it would seem I have been slightly misinformed by what I've been told of the movie; it doesn't depict Albert Fish in a sympathetic light and he's portrayed as the horrific sick fuck that he is. But going by the films synopsis on The Other Wiki, I'm a little concerned on the possibility that I was informed by a sympathizer. However it still tries to go the insanity route for Fish.

But I figure I'd at least give him a shot. The Gray Man is a biographical thriller that focuses primarily on the investigation of Albert Fish and goes a little bit into his family life. It's mainly from the point of view of his lead investigator Detective William King and is told in the style of a classic noire film.

Who is Albert Fish ? What Does He Do ?

For those who don't know Albert Fish was an American Serial Killer, cannibal, child molestor, and sadomachochist. As you can probably guess his drill revolves around him abducting, torturing/raping children to death and eating them. Mercifully none of these acts are depicted onscreen, only the buildup and aftermath. The film depicts Fish as an apparently doting father to his children (namely his daughter Gertrude and granddaughter Gloria) but a verbally Abusive Parent to his son Albert Fish junior. At the beginning of the film we see Fish getting him and his son evicted from their apartment after he sent an obscene and threatening letter to his landlady because she wouldn't let him take her young son "to the pictures". He later murders and partially cannibalizes a boys out named Francis McDonnel. Partway through the film, we see him take the alias of Frank Howard to get close to the Budd family, and gain their trust. This leads up to his famous abduction and murder of young Grace Budd, as he takes her out of town under the pretext of taking her to a birthday party and luring her to a farmhouse.

The rest of the film focuses on the six year investigation of Grace's disappearance and even how it took a toll on Detective King who eventually has a nervous breakdown over the incident. Fish meanwhile is checked into a mental health clinic for indecent exposure before he eventually has the clinic place him in his daughters custody. Eventually Fish sends the infamous letter to the Budd's family, which catches the attention of King, who finds a series of letters and newspaper articles stashed all over Fish's new apartment. King and his fellow detective Maher corner Fish as he's getting his mail, and arrest him as he tries to stab them. It's also mentioned that Fish got his farmhouse by murdering a mother and her young son in order to steal her property. As per history, Fish is sentenced to death by electric chair days into his trial. The movie ends with Fish's execution.

Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?

My source was wrong about Fish being portrayed sympathetically; it doesn't paint him in a tragic light, nor does any character sympathize with him save for his daughter (which doesn't last long on her part).

Now normally I don't do depictions of historical villains because I have reservations on how much liberties are taking with them in order to differentiate between a historically accurate representation and a fictionalized one. As far as liberations of history are shown, from what I gathered Fish didn't attack his arresting officers but went with them quietly. This film also omits his last words beyond giving the Budd's a knowing smile just before his execution (it also tries to depict Grace's mother as an Attention Whore when the media began to cover her daughter's death). It also depicts Fish as an Entitled Bastard who tries to deflect the blame onto others, including a would he victim's mother who wouldn't let him take her son.

The closest to an excuse Fish has got was that he was beaten and disciplined at an orphanage, which according to history is where he developed his sadist fetish. At the beginning of the film, he describes an incident where some older boys set a horses tail on fire as a prank and likens himself to the horse, claiming that his crimes where about "passion". However the movie does try to say that Fish was insane, portraying him as a borderline schizophrenic, who sees a ghostly vision of himself as a child while he whips himself. During these sessions he is seen crying out to God and his parents about them wanting to crucify him. During his time in a mental health clinic briefly implies that he feels some sort of remorse over killing Gracie as he screams and cries out her name in his sleep, about how she "intices" him with her tears with mentions how he'd wake up terrified. Although this happens before he sends his infamous letter so who knows what's that about.

Another thing to note is the movie also states that Fish seemed like a God fearing man and one of his rationalizations for what he did to Gracie was, according to his doctor, that he did what he did because he thought he was saving her from being raped in the future and that if God had a problem with what he did, then he would have sent an angel to stop him.

Another thing this film goes into is his family life, which I find a little more problematic; it's made clear that he and his son Albert Junior despise eachother, but he acts like a doting father to Gertrude and is enthusiastic about his granddaughter Gloria. Now Gertude does sympathize with her father, claiming that he was always loving to his children and kept their family together after their mother left. Speaking of, it's also implied the reason Albert Junior is The Un-Favorite is because he went to life with his mother for some time. Now it's unclear just how much if any of Fish's care for his children is genuine as they do imply that he's taking advantage of Gertude's affection for him. Ultimately Gertude is left disillusioned by her father for what he did and his last letter to her is a request that she disown Albert Junior and teach her children to hate him, that same letter has him blaming her husband for getting him arrested in the first place due to a check he sent. He also laments the way Albert Junior treated him as part of him blame defection.

Heinous standard

This is a movie focusing on Albert Fish that we're talking about, one his histories most infamous cannibals and pedophiles. Heinousness isn't exactly an issue here.

Edited by Beast on Sep 12th 2020 at 3:25:29 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#117316: May 5th 2018 at 7:56:27 AM

[tup] to Set,Fish and Gorzi

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#117318: May 5th 2018 at 8:30:45 AM

[tup] Seth and Garzi

Unfortunately, I have to [tdown] Fish. He seems a bit too barking mad to qualify, along with the ambiguity of if he loves his daughter.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#117320: May 5th 2018 at 8:36:37 AM

[tdown] to Fish as he sounds like an example of a character who geniuenly is too insane as well as the stuff about his daughter giving a bit too much ambiguity.

edited 5th May '18 8:37:18 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#117321: May 5th 2018 at 8:38:22 AM

No to Fish, as others have said, he's legit off his knocker here.

Edit: Yes to Gorzi, sorry, Men, missed that and ACW asked me if I could trim Monty, so here's what I got so y'all can see it before I move it to the drafts:

  • Death Sentence: The depraved comedian, David "Monty" Montgomery, becomes infected with the G+ virus, giving him six months to live but granting him hypnotic and telekinetic powers, which he decides to spend tormenting the planet. A Serial Rapist, Monty forces a num to sleep with him using his powers, Monty goes on to rape and murder the Queen of England, telekinetically shattering the skulls of all members of the Royal Family before proclaiming himself King of England. Forcing hundreds of soldiers to kill themselves, Monty also kills the Prime Minister to totally rule over England. Via public broadcast, Monty forces millions to engage in a variety of depraved pursuits and blows up the heads of a crowd full of people for the crime of annoying him. When a naval fleet is sent to deal with him, Monty uses his now extended abilities to murder over one million people in the city before hypnotizing the naval captain into raping one of his own men and making the armada wipe itself out. So vile are his actions he necessitates a nuclear weapon being dropped on London and desiring nothing but death and destruction, Monty admits even this is not enough to satisfy his depraved appetites.

edited 5th May '18 9:01:47 AM by 43110

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#117322: May 5th 2018 at 8:57:26 AM

Honestly sounds too insane for me to say yes.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#117323: May 5th 2018 at 9:06:20 AM

[up][up] looks great. Though I would love to hear Scraggs opinion about this as he's the one who propose him

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#117325: May 5th 2018 at 9:13:30 AM

No to Fish.

We have talked about TMNT villains who are monsters and we talked about cartoons and comics, but I think we have not talked about some of the TMNT movies.

We have talked about how the 90s movie Shredder does not count and talked about how no one in the recent Paramount movies does not count, but there is one movie we have talked about, the infamous TMNT III. I have not seen that movie in decades, but I do remember one of the villains, a British pirate named Walker being pretty bad, worse then Shredder considering he tried to burn down a Japanese village. The only problem is that movie is pretty bad and would be a chore to get through.


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