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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#117151: May 4th 2018 at 9:11:45 AM

Dunno anything about that guy. Heres his wiki page though if your curious for more details about him.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#117152: May 4th 2018 at 9:16:01 AM

Honestly, if there will be a sequel to the God of War reboot, which I recall it will, I could see someone counting down the road.

AFreakyDude Since: Jul, 2015
#117153: May 4th 2018 at 9:20:26 AM

What do you guys think of Kali, The Dragon to Judah Earl from The Crow: City of Angels?

And a happy Star Wars Day to all of you too!

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#117154: May 4th 2018 at 9:22:48 AM

How can a work have 55 C Ms? I would think by the 20th or 30th candidate the heinous standard would be too high for anyone to stand out.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#117155: May 4th 2018 at 9:25:17 AM

Nah, Kali's not bad enough to stand out

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#117156: May 4th 2018 at 9:25:28 AM

[up][up] On one hand I'd agree, but OTOH there are SO many characters that I'm not terribly surprised. Hell, just look at the official universe. You've got the all-powerful Palpatine, the extremely-but-not-as-powerful Tarkin, the Big Bad Wannabe Krennic, and the surprisingly heinous Phasma.

Hypothetically, who would you cut?

P.S. Lighty, any expansion necessary for Moruth Doole? Interesting in that he seems to be the only rapist CM.

P.P.S. I was curious; this has 465 villains.

edited 4th May '18 9:28:35 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#117157: May 4th 2018 at 9:26:00 AM

Star Wars is an enormous shared universe with hundreds of villains. Literally hundreds, plus a continuity reboot.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#117158: May 4th 2018 at 9:29:53 AM

Heck there are hundreds upon hundreds of villains in Star Wars with how many works they've been over the nearly 40 years its been around.

So there being 50 is low when you compare it to the total.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#117159: May 4th 2018 at 9:30:22 AM

Yeah but how do 55 characters manage to have crimes bad enough to count without serioualy jacking up the heinous standard?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#117160: May 4th 2018 at 9:31:15 AM

Because we ruled they do and they all stick out uniquely enough. Now, I think we've hit the point where this doesn't need to be further litigated.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#117161: May 4th 2018 at 9:34:05 AM

[up][up]Dude let it go. Some of these guys appeared literally hundreds of years from each other and none of them are an exact copy of another one, so they stick out.

We literally only have 9 canon CM's.

[down]Shit. Miscounted.

edited 4th May '18 9:37:14 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#117162: May 4th 2018 at 9:36:14 AM

[up]11. Palpatine, Tarkin, the 4 other Clone Wars baddies. Krennic, Vidian, the 2 other Aftermath baddies, Phasma.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#117163: May 4th 2018 at 9:37:35 AM

I am just asking a question. It seems so odd.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#117164: May 4th 2018 at 9:43:11 AM

Keep in mind that Palpatine's crimes are spread out over multiple entries and two separate continuities. We also have one candidate that hails from non-canon work.

edited 4th May '18 9:44:48 AM by chasemaddigan

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#117165: May 4th 2018 at 9:43:58 AM

Not every inquiry is worth our time.

ChaoticQueen Since: Mar, 2011
#117166: May 4th 2018 at 9:44:28 AM

@117148 I highly doubt the God of War franchise will ever have a CM. Kratos slaughtered countless innocent people before he started his crusade against the gods. He then proceeded plunge the entire world into chaos just to get revenge on Zeus. All of this, and yet he's still sympathetic with some redeeming qualities. I honestly can't imagine anyone surpassing that standard.

edited 4th May '18 9:45:28 AM by ChaoticQueen

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#117167: May 4th 2018 at 9:48:39 AM

So I thought I'd try my hand at an effort post. I have two candidates from the First Edition of Scion that I would like to talk about, and I apologize if this post gets a little long since there's probably a lot of explanation to do.

What's the work?

Scion is a tabletop RPG where you play as, well, Scions. Scions are the children or chosen of gods, fated to become gods themselves if they live long enough and grow powerful enough. However, scions are inevitably drawn into an age-old conflict with the parents of the gods: the Titans. Titans are world-like entities so vast and powerful that they have a hard time comprehending reality and need to create avatars to better understand the world; these avatars include beings like Surtr, Gaia, Mikaboshi, Mami Wata, and more. Bad things will happen to the World if the Titans have their way, so Scions need to find a way to end their threat for good.

My first candidate, however, is not a Titan Avatar. Instead, he's a Scion who serves as the main antagonist of the gamebooks' "main adventure."

Who is Kane Taoka?

Kane Taoka is a Scion, a son of Amaterasu and the leader of a Scion band calling themselves the Shinsengumi. He lost his father and stepmother at a young age and spent most of his time in orphanages, abusive foster homes, or on the streets, and has grown pretty bitter as a result.

Kane eventually comes into contact with Mikaboshi, the primary avatar of the Titan of Darkness Soku-no-kumi and the archenemy of the Japanese gods. Mikaboshi tells Kane that it was Amaterasu's indifference that led to his harsh life, and the bitter Scion vows revenge and plans to destroy his mother, no matter the cost. He swears allegiance to Mikaboshi and plans to help the Titan reduce the World to oblivion, and in return Mikaboshi becomes his second divine patron and grants him dark powers. He forms his own little Scion band, but lies to them about his true objectives. Two of his teammates know his true goal, but the others are left in the dark.

In the first gamebook, Kane attempts to use an artifact known as the Black Feather Shroud to achieve apotheosis by draining his mother's own godhood. When that doesn't work, his next plan is to raise the city of Atlantis and use the primal energy locked within the sunken city to devastate the world, hoping to provoke a confrontation with the gods and allow him a second chance to strike at his mother. This will also allow Mikaboshi to absorb the Atlantean Underworld, gaining enough of a foothold to absorb more and more Underworld Realms until the entire Underworld is absorbed into Soku-no-kumi, who can then renew its assault against the gods with renewed vigor.

When the players thwart this plan and trap Mikaboshi and the rest of Soku-no-kumi in the Atlantean Underworld, Kane decides to cut his losses and runs deeper into into Soku-no-kumi to escape. This causes him to be effectively absorbed by Mikaboshi, his body serving as an avatar of the...Titan avatar. The gamebooks do allow the possibility of him returning with his full faculties as a new God of Darkness, though that's up to the gamemaster.

Heinous standard?

Hoo boy, this is a tough one for me.

Kane's primary motivation is revenge against his mother, which may seem small, but the books mention that he wants to achieve this no matter the cost. If it means that the entire world is destroyed by Mikaboshi, then so be it. Whether this petty vindictiveness drives him over the heinous standard is something I'm curious to hear your thoughts on.

Kane is nowhere near as powerful as the Titans, who all have pretty horrific end goals. However, I don't think the Titans have any agency, because the true Titans are metaphysical concepts given form and really cannot do much else. Soku-no-kumi wants to destroy the world, but that's because it is oblivion, and oblivion is supposed to bring an end to things. Avatars like Mikaboshi have a bit more agency, though ultimately they're driven by whatever the Titan they come from wants to do, so their agency is pretty spotty as well.

There are two other antagonistic groups in this setting with pretty bad end goals: the Keepers of the World and the Order of Divine Glory. The Keepers want to sever the connection between the World and the divine realms and plan to sacrifice a lot of people to power a ritual to do so. However, they fall under Well-Intentioned Extremist because they want to prevent the conflict between the gods and Titans from doing any more damage to the world.

The Order of Divine Glory lies to Scions and tells them that their divine powers come from the Abrahamic God (who might not actually exist in this setting; that's up to the gamemaster to decide). However, the Order is filled with people who actually want to do good in the world, and the most heinous of them are the higher-ups who plan to use Fate itself to bind all gods into one God...and then use said God to control the world.

Overall, I think Kane is ultimately the most malevolent of the antagonists who has agency over his actions, though I'll get to more in the next section.

Mitigating factors?

This is another tricky one for me. Kane does have a girlfriend: fellow Shinsengumi member Orlanda Elliot. However, he doesn't seem to regard her as anything other than a useful tool to advance Mikaboshi's cause.

The gamebooks mention that Kane is a free-willed Scion striking out against the gods. However, it also mentions that he's deluded by Mikaboshi and doesn't have the free will he thinks he does. While I believe his hatred of his mother is genuine and that he's willing to destroy the World if it means getting back at his mother, I also have to question how much control Mikaboshi really has over him, since the gamebooks don't really go into too much detail. The adventures he's in do paint him as someone doing things of his own free will; Mikaboshi never has to "assume direct control" or anything like that.

Overall?

I'm honestly not sure with Kane, mostly because of agency issues and how petty he ultimately is compared to the sheer destruction the other antagonists can cause. However, he is one of the most malevolent of antagonists as well, so I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on him.

Whew, sorry for the huge post. If you have any questions that will help in your decision, I'll do my best to answer them.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#117168: May 4th 2018 at 10:05:04 AM

He seems like someone that is being manipulated but whose evil is totally genuine.

Albeit, trying to get revenge at his divine mother for having a crappy lifr seems like a Freudian Excuse

Uh...

Edit: [tdown] to Kane

I'm dubious when you're Manipulated for the God of Evil. Not that is impossible qualify when you are (Mr. Sudou from Persona 2) but in this case, it seems that it's the case.

edited 4th May '18 10:26:41 AM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#117169: May 4th 2018 at 10:13:51 AM

Uh..... I just going to abstain on Kane

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#117170: May 4th 2018 at 10:20:16 AM

Gonna have to say nay to Kane. He comes across as a hurt child being manipulated to me, a monster but not a complete one.

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#117171: May 4th 2018 at 10:22:05 AM

[tdown] for Kane Taoka. [up] Sums up my thoughts about him pretty well.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#117172: May 4th 2018 at 10:28:25 AM

[tdown]Kane

Not bad though for a first EP dragonfire.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#117173: May 4th 2018 at 10:50:12 AM

[up]Thanks. Again, apologies if it ended up being kind of rambly; Scion has a lot of stuff to explain.

So it'll probably be a while before I effort post my second villain from the books, but I have a question for all of you: do you guys think it might be worthwhile to EP any of the Titan avatars?

I mentioned some of this in the Kane EP, but while I hold that none of the "true Titans" (referred to as Greater Titans in the books) count because they're completely driven by their "concepts" and really can't do much else, their avatars do have some autonomy in that they can have different goals from each other. So while Mikaboshi might want to bring about the darkness of oblivion, fellow Soku-no-kumi avatar Erebus and Huehueteotl interpret Soku-no-kumi's "envelop everything in darkness" differently; Erebus wants every living being to live underground away from the light while Huehueteotl wants to blind everything (even if it means killing everyone). Ultimately though, they're still part of the Greater Titan, so most of their desires still stem from what the Greater Titan wants to do.

In a way, I'm kind of reminded of the Belberith situation: beings that are created from a larger entity and driven by said entity's goals and desires, but having enough sense of self that they can actually be considered "characters."

If you guys think the other avatars might be worth an EP, I can give some of them a shot because hoo boy, some of these avatars are not very nice deities.

edited 4th May '18 10:56:07 AM by dragonfire5000

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#117174: May 4th 2018 at 10:56:44 AM

A very good EP, but sadly I think there are too many mitigating factors for me to say yes to Kane.

Still, great job and it gave us a very complete picture to vote on

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#117175: May 4th 2018 at 10:58:50 AM

Hope, when your question is answered, don't draw it out, please.

Agreeing Kane was worth bringing here and phenomenal first EP, but I don't think Kane counts with the agency issues.

And, uh, honestly? If you think agency can be argued for? Go for it with the Titan avatars. Sort of reminds me of the Beast generals in while they are extensions of a greater being's will, they still explicitly have enough agency to be their own individual and make their own choices outside of their progenitor's will ("Who needs the Beast Planet? I can destroy you all myself!).

edited 4th May '18 11:08:33 AM by Scraggle


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