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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#116576: Apr 28th 2018 at 2:53:47 PM

Whoops that was my bad. Misread the first part, thought it was Wallander. So sorry for that.

Also yeah couldn't the Hardebergs be combined.

edited 28th Apr '18 2:54:34 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#116577: Apr 28th 2018 at 2:57:30 PM

Yeah, I guess they can. My only problem is that they have quite different personalities; Alfred is smooth and charismatic, Kristina is eerily calm and cold.

Also, as for that new.page, to avoid confusion, I meant that Martin Beck, the series, doesn't have a good-enough page yet.

edited 28th Apr '18 3:02:02 PM by MenInGreyToBlak

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#116579: Apr 28th 2018 at 3:17:22 PM

Also, ran this through Men and he said it caught all the crimes needed:

  • Wallander: From The Man who Smiled, Alfred Hardeberg and his daughter, Kristina, are the masterminds behind TLL, a program they use to take organs from poor, desperate people and sell them to the wealthy. Kristina also murders children to harvest organs from their deceased bodies. When Alfred's business dealing with Sten Torensson and his father goes badly, he hires assassins to kill them, blowing up the entire buildings they are in to murder them.

edited 28th Apr '18 3:17:33 PM by 43110

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#116580: Apr 28th 2018 at 3:17:39 PM

Sure to Dag.

Anyways, Lois and Clark candidate number 2... from the season 4 two-parter The People VS. Lois Lane and Dead Lois Walking? Professor Jefferson Cole.

Who is Jefferson Cole? What has he done?

Cole started off as a scientist in S.T.A.R. Labs, under Superman's close ally Bernard Stein... now, Cole was a genius scientist who was nevertheless a narcissist maniac who decided to sell dangerous weapons technology designed in S.T.A.R. Labs to terrorists and other unsavory folk, which meant Stein was forced to oust him. Lois covered the story and Superman put him in jail, meaning Cole has nine years to simmer in anger developing new technologies and planning his elaborate revenge.

Eventually released, Cole first targets Lois in an effort to completely ruin her life and condemn her to a hellhole prison to suffer for the rest of her life, through his henchman and a former informant of Lois who discredited her years ago, Sykes. Cole tempts Sykes with the promise of a larger pay cut while he conducts an interview with Lois... only to snidely make a memo to himself to cancel his previous project while remotely activating a gun Sykes gives Lois, ending with Sykes shot and killed and Lois taking the heat. When Clark rushes to Lois' aid? Cole decides the case isn't hot enough and resolves to make Lois hang instead, unveiling his pride and joy — his "Hallucinator" technology which creates lifelike fake images —to make it look as though Lois is terrorizing Metropolis with a gun. When she's put to trial? Cole uses the Hallucinator to keep Clark occupied as Superman with false disasters while kidnapping and mind-wiping Lois' boss, Perry White, and using an image in his likeness to incriminate her. Lois is sentenced to death as Cole gleefully watches.

Clark, in a moment of desperation, busts Lois out and the two become fugitives... furious, Cole forces the politician running for Governor of Metropolis to increase tensions on his search lest he ruin his entire life by revealing his corruption, and when another one of his minions who took the video of Lois shooting Sykes tries to defect? Cole murders her, having previously warned her that she'd just be another "head on my wall" if she tried to back out and mocking her over not having the guts to kill people. Cole uses the Hallucinator tech to trick Stein into handing off something called Project K to a drop-off station, secretly his hideout, whereupon he kidnaps Lois and finally reveals his ultimate plan.

Not just pissed off at Lois? Cole wants to ruin both Stein and Superman for aiding in his arrest... by using Project K (hybrid Kryptonite capable of harming both people and Superman) rain down on all Metropolis, horribly killing millions of people while the survivors — "if any," Cole notes — blame Stein and Superman. Cole intends to force Lois to watch as Metropolis dies before he murders her personally. Superman, thankfully, manages to come to the conclusion Cole is the killer and dissolves the clouds, before bursting into Cole's sanctum and defeating him. Cole's left back to the authorities, Lois' name is cleared, and all is well.

Any mitigating factors?

No redeeming factors for Cole... again, for the heinous standard? Cole clears most of the other villains at this show and his main competition is Law, Roarke, and Overlord's next candidate. I do think a large part of how horrible Cole is is because of his motive which is Disproportionate Retribution defined — Cole wants to ruin the lives of the people who rightfully brought him to justice and "shunned his genius" by horribly murdering an entire city while forcing one of them to watch and meticulously ruining the lives of everyone else beyond salvaging. He's got plenty of other murder as well — one minion he kills just to use him as a patsy — so I think Cole is an excellent demonstration of a villain that blends personal villainy with wide scale, with the former working into the latter to such an extent I think it pushes him.

I'd say pass.

Conclusion?

I'll leave it to the thread, but I say keep.

Thoughts?

edited 28th Apr '18 3:19:03 PM by Scraggle

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#116581: Apr 28th 2018 at 3:20:25 PM

[tup] Dag and Cole.

edited 28th Apr '18 6:20:24 PM by JoeBlitz

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#116583: Apr 28th 2018 at 3:43:44 PM

[tup] to the Lois and Clark examples and nice to see that at least one Rourke ended up qualifying between the villain I had to not effortpost due to a potential redeeming quality and your own EP.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#116584: Apr 28th 2018 at 3:47:41 PM

Yea on Dag,Cole and Law

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#116587: Apr 28th 2018 at 4:06:50 PM

[tup] to Dag Sjöberg and Professor Jefferson Cole.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#116588: Apr 28th 2018 at 4:52:11 PM

[tup] to Dag and Cole.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#116589: Apr 28th 2018 at 4:58:39 PM

[tup] Law, Dag and Cole. Writeup for possibly the three most evil candidates i have proposed in a while, i'll add them to the drafts when Word of God confirms that everything is in check.

  • The Arkn Mythos: In a Forever War with a vast cast of morally-ambiguous characters, these three stand out as the absolute worst:
    • De'ebo, God of the Godless, is the original Hethe and the entity behind most of the tragedies throughout the franchise. Using his first creation, Hash'bor'kanibal, The Carver, as a vessel for his energy, De'ebo would go on to make the lives of both Arkn and Dekn a living hell. Destroying a large portion of humanity during a fight with Gilgamesh, De'ebo used his former lover's bones and agony to construct the Infernous, and sealed not only his own son, Uriel, but also his other lover in there, at the request of his manipulated daughter. Having been affiliated with The Watchers, De'ebo informed the Arkn Cabinet of their presence, resulting in the massacre of several innocent nephilim. With the help of the Hooks Killer, De'ebo gained a human vessel, and tortured his grandson, Ellpagg, in the Infernous. Encountering Azrael in the Infernous, De'ebo gouges his eyes out and reveals his ultimate goal: to kill every being in existence. Possessing the body of his nephilim son Michael, De'ebo gives Azrael a brand which would burn his body whenever a Hethe came near him, and allowed Azrael to shoot him, killing Michael. A remorseless being with no empathy for anyone, not even his own offspring, De'ebo could only care about amusing himself with pain and chaos.
    • The aforementioned Hooks Killer is a repulsive psychopath with a passion for sickening atrocities and a Psycho for Hire assisting De'ebo in his plans while committing countless murders solely For the Evulz. A human with part of The Carver's soul within himself, Hooks uses his powers to become a "perfect killer", reincarnating as multiple criminals in different eras and timelines. Originally Bernalbelt Kinnard, an outlaw with over a hundred victims to his name, Hooks travelled to another reality and assumed the indentity of King Orok, a medieval ruler whose sheer brutality tainted the New Comshine area with infamy. In modern times, Hooks reincarnated as Adam Antium Spirit, the son of a cult leader, eviscerating his own pregnant sister and devouring her child, which may or may not have been his own. His next incarnation, Marty Taylor, murdered Adam's brother, Detective Damien Spirit, while he was investigating the crimes of Alexander Tamil, another serial killer and one of his associates. Following Marty's death in 2014, Hooks returned a year later as Adrian Tamil, Alexander's son, planning on continuing the serial killings his father and his previous-self had started. Not satisfied with murder, Hooks also enjoys consuming human flesh laced with fish hooks and rape, preferebly on infants. In order to give De'ebo a human vessel, Hooks murdered a young filmmaker who had been documenting his murders and mutilated Michael Knight, sending him to the Infernous to be tormented by his father. Despite his status as a mere human, Hooks proved himself to be much more deporable than many Arkn or Dekn.
    • Elius'Exe'Deus, or Elias Exodus, is De'ebo's nephilim, teenaged power-hungry grandson. As a child, Exodus survived the attempted genocide of nephilim by being kept in a realm called the Hybrid Grounds with other nephilim, and in there, Exodus proceeded to slaughter his siblings for their energy. Resurfacing in 2015 as an amnesiac boy suffering from voices inside his head, Exodus had his powers awakened when one of the Dekn who had saved him from the massacre, Persophelus Vine, stopped him from committing suicide. With his memories back, Exodus absorbs Vine's powers and traps him inside a cube; despite everything he had done for him, leaving him to rot in the Hybrid Grounds for eternity. Intending on consuming both Arkn and Dekn to become a living god, Exodus leaves the Hybrid Grounds and visits his uncle, Raphael Tobit Kestler, sending him to The Vale of Nightmares, before murdering his twin brother, gloating on how crazy he was for having effectively driven his own race into near-extinction. Though a Big Bad Wannabe in the grand scheme of things, Exodus was evil to point of being considered the most hated antagonist in the franchise.

edited 28th Apr '18 10:21:10 PM by TheMadCr0w

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#116591: Apr 28th 2018 at 6:01:28 PM

Alright..........Now I've seen the LP in which Tarrak appears and I think I'll just lean a slight [tup]......The fact that he tricks Captain Parr by saying the Eohki people hack their communication and then orders Parr to gunning down Eohki ships even the hospital ships full of children is what seals the deal for me...........And then there's the fact in one instance, Tarrak then orders his men to scour a planet out of suspicion because of the Drantzuli Egg paranoia even if the representative of that planet said they're innocent and can be trusted..........So yeah, think Tarrak could pass the baseline here. And any justification that he had rings hollow as he said that he wanted to save "trillions of lives" yet he plans to do planetary genocide due to said planet had a Drantzuli Eggs, even the innocent ones that doesn't have any of the eggs and can be trusted because why not!? So yeah.....

He still have a room to become worse and worse but I think he breaches the baseline just a little bit

edited 28th Apr '18 6:03:27 PM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#116593: Apr 28th 2018 at 7:06:32 PM

Yes but when they're doing their serious shit and getting up to their noteworthy crimes, those have to be played 100% seriously.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#116594: Apr 28th 2018 at 7:28:41 PM

I think a good example of that? Orson Krennic. Tossed around by pretty much everyone he meets and yet he's still a complete bastard.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#116595: Apr 28th 2018 at 7:47:33 PM

[up] Lol, Krennic almost leaves you like, "Poor dude can't catch a break" until you remember what a dick he is.

Now here's an... interesting one to say the least:

What's the work?

The Fifth Element is a very goofy English-language French sci fi action film. Yes, it's wonky but hear me out. In it, the world is threatened by a great evil once every 5000 years, currently with the planet lined up to be attacked in the year 2263. The titular element, a woman who goes by "Leeloo" (played by Milla Jovovich), has to unite the other four elements and save the planet. Aiding her is cab driver and former soldier Korben Dallas (Bruce Willis). As much as I'd love to give the evil threatening the planet a go, it just lacks enough personality/motives but its right hand man, coincidentally played to hilarious perfection by Gary Oldman, is a greedy bastard.

Who is Zorg? What has he done?

Jean-Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg is a sinister industrialist and one hell of a Corrupt Corporate Executive. Using the violent warrior race, the Mangalores, Zorg has them attack and slaughter a ship full of the heroic Mondoshawans to steal the case containing the four stones that can be used to stop the evil (which, by the way, refers to itself as Mr. Shadow). Angered when he finds the case empty, Zorg dupes the Mangalores into accepting weapons as a gift from his company, before revealing they have a powerful self-destruct button built into them, which he uses to kill many of them. Also a less than charitable man even when he isn't aiding Eldritch Abominations, Zorg, in response to an economic downturn, responds to his advisor's suggestion to lay off 500000 works by instead callously giving the pink slip to one million, which results in Korban losing his job.

While meeting with the priest Vito Cornelius in his head office, Zorg tries to give an arrogant rant that while his scheme will cost people their lives, doing so is part of the natural flow of things and tries to give a demonstration...before almost choking to death on a cherry and when Cornelius saves him, promises to spare him...for now. When contacting by Mr. Shadow, Zorg shows utter terror but no so much he feels compelled to tell Shadow his aid in the destruction of Earth will now cost triple what they had originally agreed upon, to which Shadow agrees and hangs up. Sending his men to infiltrate a luxury space voyage, Zorg becomes enraged when they fail to impersonate Korban and get onboard, blowing up the Mangalore who was supposed to board the ship. Personally attacking the ship along with his Mangalore followers, Zorg slaughters every innocent and guard he comes across, having his Mangalores do the same and taking many hostages.

When Zorg believes he has found the box containing the stones of the four elements, he sets a bomb to destroy the cruise ship and leaves back to his own pod but has to return once he realizes the case is, once again, empty. Taking the time to gun down a group of ship guards who merely warn him about the bomb, Zorg tries to go back and turn it off, only for one of the Mangalores he had left for dead to activate another switch for it, killing them both and leaving Shadow alone to try and destroy the Earth.

Heinousness?

Now, both he and Shadow are working to destroy the Earth but while Shadow's motives are left purposefully mysterious, Zorg is clearly just trying to help him in return for a hefty payday. Add in that Shadow is a literal planet destroyer while Zorg is just a wealthy human and he's easily passing the baseline here.

Mitigating factors?

First thing to be asked is "Is Zorg played seriously enough?" I'm not gonna lie, he's got some hilarious scenes, such as the one where he nearly chokes to death on a cherry mid villain speech but while some things like this and the film itself are heavy on the comedy, I think when Zorg is out to destroy the world and the clear implication of the 200 billion people he will kill just to get paid, I ultimately don't think this is an issue.

Next up: Yes, he does agree to spare Cornelius for saving him which made me initially hesitate but the reason I'm not inclined to see this as truly mitigating is the fact he wants to blow up the frickin' planet the priest lives on so "honouring" that deal was a really temporary thing and upon rewatch strikes me as utterly hollow. Other than that? Not a whole lot to say, he treats his minions like shit and is just a greedy monster willing to allow for one of the highest body counts I've ever seen just to get paid.

Verdict

While I can see a few things being a potential issue for some, ultimately, to me Zorg is a keeper.

Thoughts?

edited 28th Apr '18 7:48:14 PM by 43110

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#116596: Apr 28th 2018 at 7:58:42 PM

yea on zorg

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#116597: Apr 28th 2018 at 8:41:50 PM

Hmmm... I'm leaning [tup] for Zorg.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#116598: Apr 28th 2018 at 8:57:53 PM

Yes to Steve Law, Dag, and Zorg.

EDIT: Btw does anybody mind if I reserve Detroit: Become Human or does anybody want to collab for it?

edited 28th Apr '18 8:59:12 PM by Knack

ChaoticQueen Since: Mar, 2011
#116599: Apr 28th 2018 at 9:03:14 PM

I think my favorite type of CM is the type that used to be a genuinely good person at some point in their life. To see someone throw away everything they once stood for and become a pure evil monster is one of the most tragic and horrifying sights to witness. It fills the audience with a mix of sorrow for the person they used to be, and bitter hatred for the person they've become. The examples I can think up off the top of my head are Dracula, Light Yagami, Dark Danny, Lotso, and Zamasu. And possibly Ego, but that's debatable. Are there any other good examples?

edited 28th Apr '18 9:03:55 PM by ChaoticQueen

Knack Since: Mar, 2018
#116600: Apr 28th 2018 at 9:04:44 PM

[up] Well, that depends, are we talking genuinely good and then became evil or were treated cruelly and became evil that way? There was a guy from criminal minds I think who became evil by himself, I think Adria the witch from Diablo counts as a good example. Same for Arcturus Mengsk from Starcraft, for Warcraft AU Gul'dan had the potential to be good but threw away whatever there was that was positive about him by killing the orc elder who was his mentor.

edited 28th Apr '18 9:10:03 PM by Knack


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