During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Here's one scene that I think confirms his motives. For anyone who's seen the show, you'll recall how he opened the sky (dimensional tear) and ordered his demons to conquer everything in the dimension. He wanted to be a Galactic Conqueror, and his way of starting his reign was by turning Earth into his throne.
Oh, I also remember. Didn't he annihilate Raven's dimension in The Prophecy? Murdered her mother (or her guardian, Arella)?
edited 15th Apr '13 5:56:02 PM by Serocco
In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.@11544 - The thing about Arkie Ragan (which, I've established on rewatch, isn't his original name) is that he's not simply taking a thousand to one chance with Kat's life and then cowardly running when it goes bad - he's resigned himself to the fact he doesn't have a chance of getting the drugs out of Bangkok, but instead of, say, finding an excuse to borrow the camera case back and dispose of the drugs before they go back to the airport (and yes, he does have a clear window to do that when she goes to meet with her father's lawyers), he just lets her unwittingly carry them through while setting her up to look like a liar to airport staff (contradicting her claim that they're travelling together).
I'm gonna rewatch the City Homicide episodes I have on hand, but I remain convinced about Brett Semple, mainly because, from memory, he's the only killer in the series whose motive was expicitly For the Evulz, and there's a scene where the other killer of the episode comments on how horrified she was to realise he was, unlike his father, a total psychopath. I'd also disagree with the self-defense argument, since the detectives didn't have their guns out before he appeared with his.
edited 15th Apr '13 7:25:31 PM by ClatoLawa
I miss the days when "We are a buttload more informal" actually meant something.Something tells me tv Trigon is going on the never again list.
Writeup for Krug:
The Last House On The Left gives us Krug, the leader of a group of murderious rapists. After he and his gang escaped prison for there privious crimes, they kidnap, rape, torture, and kill two teenage girls. The parents of one of the girls, find out and come after them, leading to a bloodbath between krug's group and the parents. Aside from leading a group of horrible rapist scum, Krug also brainwashed his son, and kept him hooked on drugs as a kid as a means to control him. Near the end of the film, he convinces his son to kill himself.
jjjA few ZCE:
- John Rimbauer. The house itself could also qualify if you believe it's sentient.
- Octavian arguably turns into this over the course of the series. At least 2 characters (Atia and Cleopatra) actually refer to him as 'a monster' in the second season.
- To his credit, the historical Augustus (Octavian) considered himself to be "acting:" sure, he was ruthless and did whatever he had to in order to secure power, but he did so because he believed it the best way to preserve Rome.
- Akron and the Queen of the Dark Horizons have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
- Same goes for Nekron, but considering he's the son of the god of hell, it's pretty well justified.
- The Doctor, for what he did to the lives of Jack Porter and Sonia Friday.
- Åge Krüger. Also, possibly, Helmer.
- Lester
- Harlen Maguire, Connor Rooney, and to a lesser extent, Frank Nitti.
edited 15th Apr '13 6:43:33 PM by TVRulezAgain
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How accurate is that version of Octavian to the real man, do you know? It's entirely possibly to make him pretty evil with the right amount of artistic license (like the Psychopathic Manchild portrayal in Cleopatra, which is hilarious to me because the Real Life Antony was actually the more violent one).
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Maguire is the only character in Road To Perdition who could possibly hack it, and he's not onscreen long.
EDIT: "But if he was given greater power, he probably would. Like we discussed with Emperor Joker a while back."
I'm not arguing against Slade's inclusion. I'm noting that the reason the Titans are willing to work with him was because he was the lesser threat at the time.
edited 15th Apr '13 7:40:53 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Some random stuff:
- Monster.The X Files: Is it necessary to lock it? Perhaps if we leave a "mods' note" for editors (the one with % signs) that nobody should add examples without the discussion, that could be just enough.
- Road to Perdition: I think the hitman/scary photographer might qualify.
- @ Occassional Exister: I'll look at those examples from Monster.Live Action TV as well.
- Sweeney Todd: I haven't seen/read the play, but the judge Turpin from the film fits, but I don't think anybody else does.
- Agree with nuking zero context, mostly, but hopefully with leaving a note in the discussion that it should be brought here.
- Law and Order: Agree with cutting the off-screen villainy.
I mostly mirror Exister's insight. If anybody presents new arguments that state otherwise, I might re-consider as I'm mostly not familiar with the examples.
- Michael Cambius of All My Children: Keep but rewrite.
- Angel
- Ryan Anderson (just called the little boy on the page): Keep. (And re-write, at least identify him by his name)
- Darin Mc Namara: Cut.
- Billy Blim: Keep.
- The Demons of Angel o Demonio: Cut, species.
- Natalie Buxton of Bad Girls: N/A
- Arkie Ragan from Bangkok Hilton: Cut.
- Battlestar Galactica (Re-imagined): (Keppers, but request edit: The Example Indentation looks a bit natterific.)
- Brother Cavil: Keep.
- Helena Cain: Keep.
- Phelan: Keep.
- Owen from Being Human: Cut.
- Mr. Cannon from 90210: Keep. (if it's on-screen)
- Raiker from Blakes 7: Keep. (and request edit)
- The child-killing drug dealers from Breaking Bad: Cut. (no groups, agree that somebody might argue for their leader)
- Carla from Burn Notice: Cut.
- God Neros from Choujinki Metalder: Keep. (and re-write)
- News Reporter: I say cut, but leave a note on the work's page that somebody might bring it up.
- Walter White: Cut.
- City Homicide:
- Dr. Sean Macready: Agree with Exister, which means more context is needed?
- Brett Semple: Cut.
- Frances Deerborne: Keep.
- Billy Pierce: Cut for caring about another person.
- Daniel Worthington: Keep.
- The Closer:
- Philip Stroh: Keep. (if enough is on-screen)
- Roger Stimple: Child rapist and murderer. Keep.
- Shane Casey from CSI: NY: Cut.
- Deadwood:
- Francis Wolcott: Keep. New write-up would be good.
- George Hearst: Cut.
- Desperate Housewives:
- Gloria Hodge: Keep.
- Patrick Logan: Keep.
- Barbara Orlofsky: Cut.
- Farscape:
- Captain Selto Durka: Keep.
- Natira: Keep.
- Kaarvok: Keep.
- Captain Jenek: Cut.
- Commandant Grayza: Keep.
- Tauza: Keep.
- Fringe: Mirror all Exister's votes, but I admit I barely looked at the examples because I am yet to watch this series, and don't want to read too many spoilers.
edited 16th Apr '13 2:13:52 AM by XFllo
A suggestion for Complete Monster Discussion: As-is, that page has an item at the top speaking of No Real Life Examples Please and a small sub-thread. Would it be an improvement if it was a pointer to this thread and its FAQ? Also, the rest of the discussion could probably be archived.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanBtw, I've been thinking about it, and I think I actually do agree with counting Turpin in the film of Sweeney Todd, because it is tonally different from the stage musical.
In stage productions, even without that mea culpa song, the Judge comes across as way more of a "normal" person (despite being perverted and corrupt), whereas the film version is very consciously sadistic and evil.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wikiI think we should do new writeups for Wolcott and Hearst, as well as do writeup for Ansen from Burn Notice.
For Far Scape I wonder if Grayza should be kept...she does sign on to peace at the end, and indicates she cares about her unborn child as awful as she was.
We should implement the Babylon 5 changes as well.
RE: Trigon GDV debate: Agree w/Ambar's points @11543. GDV and CM are mutually exclusive on account of the former being a cardboard cut-out out to destroy the world, which makes it too impersonal. Omnicidal Maniacs being relatively common, for one to be a CM he has to have more to him than the desire to inflict generalised death and suffering. Trigon making Raven suffer a bit more than the rest of the world seemed to me more like a side effect he didn't particularly gave a damn about than something he looked forward to seeing her go through on a personal level.
Also, @Anew: You said Trigon was "Still not as heinous as Slade, though." @11545. Sounds like an autodisqualify to me if he can't be more heinous than a guy at least 2 orders of magnitude less powerful.
Occasional's entries @11544: Looks pretty solid.
to all suggestions made there as I write this. If I diverge later I'll expound why then.
TV's ZCE's @11555: Expand or cut the lot.
edited 16th Apr '13 12:31:31 PM by Paireon
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.Can someone move the Torchwood examples, and the quote from the Live-Action TV page to the Doctor Who page. For the quote, I believe this one will make a good substitute.
-> Data: You are capable of great sadism and cruelty. Interesting. No redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Armus: So, what do you think?
Data: I think you should be destroyed.
—>— Star Trek: The Next Generation, "Skin of Evil"
edited 16th Apr '13 1:01:07 PM by randomtroper89
You said Trigon was "Still not as heinous as Slade, though." @11545. Sounds like an autodisqualify to me if he can't be more heinous than a guy at least 2 orders of magnitude less powerful.
Slade being the worst he can possibly be despite being 2 orders of magnitude less powerful is why he's more heinous. Trigon is just the greater and more powerful force of evil. I kind of made a seperation of who was "more evil" and "more heinous" between them. I can see them both qualifying as C Ms, but Trigon would've had to have shown to be like his comic counterpart to make the cut. Since he wasn't, I'm willing to let him get disqualified.
edited 16th Apr '13 2:39:21 PM by AnewMan
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The problem with that quote is that the consensus in this thread is that Armus doesn't count. That quote is closer to You Monster!.
On pages 333 and 334 of this thread, Skullmaster was brought up as a Complete Monster, but the Your Mileage May Vary page for Mighty Max doesn't even explain why he is this. Luckily, I found a little something on You Tube that shows that he deserves the title:
edited 16th Apr '13 3:41:27 PM by TiggersAreGreat
Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!For the Battlestar Galacta I have rewrites that remove the natter:
- Helena Cain is a ruthless Admiral dediacted to wiping out the Cylons at all cost. She cannibalizes a refugee fleet for parts (including their FTL drives) and leaves them at the mercy of the Cylons (and we know how the Cylons deal with civilians). While doing that, she conscripts any able-bodied man in the fleet, shooting their families if they refuse to join her. Then she comes to the Galactica fleet and decides to take the fight to the Cylons, despite none of the other ships except Galactica being combat-capable. She also shot her Executive Officer in the head when he refused to order what looked like a suicide mission, right in front of the crew. And let's not forget Admiral Cain's standard procedure for interrogating female Cylon prisoners: violent rape, by the official Cylon Interrogator, as well as any crew member who feels like it.
- Phelan, the ex-military mercenary turned crime lord from "Black Market", counts too. He runs the titular market and garrotes anyone who threatens his supremacy. When Apollo investigates the death of one of Phelan's competitors, the man pays him a visit, abducting the Hooker with a Heart of Gold Apollo had been seeing regularly and taking her daughter and warning Apollo that "I hear any more talk about Fisk I'm gonna send your whore back to you piece by piece, and then I'm gonna start on the little girl." As if that's not enough, in his headquarters he keeps a bunch of children locked in a cell. When Apollo confronts him and asks about that, he claims that: people are: "demanding." When Apollo demands the kid back. Phelan replies "Sorry, the little girl's been paid for. No refunds."
edited 16th Apr '13 4:24:35 PM by randomtroper89

And he just...did it. Nothing too horrific, ellaborate or drawn out like the Nibiru Entity's apocalypse: just with his power, he immediately destroys the world, deforming it into a molten wasteland and turning everyone to stone.
I've raised some arguments as to why he could be seen as a Complete Monster, but that there isn't one of them.
edited 15th Apr '13 5:52:30 PM by AnewMan