During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
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- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
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It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
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We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Resisilobus. Not impressed with a villain who's mostly talk.
So uh this is a question for a candidate that will be discussed eventually but say they are played seriously but having an especially embarrassing death/defeat can they still count.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Just watched the film Citizen X and it doesn't appear to have been discussed here before (a search turned up nothing). Thought I'd propose its villain, Andrei Chikatilo.
Who is Andrei Chikatilo? What has he done?
Chikatilo is a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer operating out of Rostov Oblast in the USSR during the 1980s. Having lost his job as a teacher for "fondling the breasts of an eleven year old girl" Chikatilo is now an unhappily married, sexually impotent factory worker who takes out the stresses of his every day life by picking up women, children, and old men on the trains and murdering them. He usually targets the very young, the addicted, or the intellectually disabled in order to ensure they cannot fight back. All the murders are conducted more or less the same way—Chikatilo takes them into the woods, clubs them on the head, rapes them, stabs them to death with a knife (averaging about thirty or so stab wounds per victim), masturbates onto the corpse, and then removes the genitals with his teeth and consumes them. The one exception to this pattern is the time when, after failing his way through sex with his wife, he hires an alcoholic prostitute, gets her drunk on cheap vodka, and then stabs her to death while sexually penetrating her, apologizing for failing to give her an orgasm while doing so.
Neither especially smart nor especially discreet, Chikatilo is enabled throughout the film by the incompetence of the Soviet bureaucracy, which at first refuses to admit serial killers even exist in the USSR ("they are a decadent Western phenomenom!") and later uses the murders as an excuse to "do society a service" by arresting every gay man in Rostov (some of the victims were young boys so clearly the killer must be gay). Chikatilo is actually arrested at one point, with a knife and a rope both in his bag, but the local Party boss orders his release because, disgraced pedophile or not, Chikatilo is still a "Party member in good standing." Courtesy of this incompetency, Chikatilo is able to murder 52 people by the end of the film.
His good luck finally running out when Mikhail Fetisov becomes head of the Rostov militia and appoints Viktor Bukarov, who has been pursuing Chikatilo the whole time, to the rank of Colonel. With new resources behind him, Bukarov arrests Chikatilo, who will at first only confess to molesting the girl who cost him his job. When psychiatrist Dr. Alexandr Bukhanovsky, who had successfully profiled Chikatilo, enters the room and reads off his (entirely accurate) profile of Chikatilo, however, Chikatilo bursts into tears and confesses to all of his crimes, crying about how badly he bruised his penis attempting to masturbate onto the corpse of the last 8 year old girl he murdered. He is convicted and executed by a Soviet officer with a shot to the back of the head.
Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?
The entire film is about the effort to catch Chikatilo, and while one can make the case that the Soviet bureaucracy that hinders the investigation is the actual antagonist of the story, Chikatilo is easily the worst person in it, raping and murdering 52 people because it's the only way he can get off.
Any redeeming qualities?
None. Chikatilo apologizes to a hooker for not getting her off, but not for murdering her, and it's pretty clear that the whole thing is just him roleplaying murdering his wife, who has berated him in the past for his inability to have sex with her. He cries at the end during his confession, but not from remorse—rather he seems to be crying from his relief at having found someone who can empathize with how painful it is when you injure your dick jerking off onto the corpse of a murdered child (the sentences this forum requires one to write sometimes).
Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?
The real Andrei Chikatilo
had a Freudian Excuse miles long. The film character has none. While he's mocked by his wife, and bullied by his boss at the factory, this doesn't make him sympathetic, not least because he deserves this treatment. To his wife he's an absentee husband who puts no effort into their relationship when he is there (the one time we see them trying to have sex he is ineptitude is blackly comedic). To his boss he's an inveterate screw up who not only regularly misses shifts, but managed to get the factory shut down for several days by virtue of his sheer staggering incompetency, yet who cannot be fired because of his Party connections; humiliation is thus the only actual recourse the manager has when it comes to dealing with him.
This is, of course, without getting into the fact that the reason he can't have sex with his wife is because she's consenting and isn't an 11 year old girl, and the reason he's never at work is because he's wandering the train stations and woods murdering people. Chikatilo's life sucks, but said suckage is entirely a product of his being a pedophiliac serial murderer. He's utterly pathetic, and could best be described as a sniveling excuse for a human being, but there's no actual reason for his doing what he does.
Final verdict?
He's a cowardly, decidedly unimpresive little shit, but this isn't just a list for the likes of Darkseid. He passes all the criteria so far as I'm concerned; what say we all?
edited 14th Apr '18 11:48:23 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
So I should cut this on the trope page for Citizen X right as this sounds incorrect:
Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds: Chikatilo. Despite his appalling crimes he's portrayed as so pathetic, wretched and put-upon that he qualifies as this, as well as a Jerkass Woobie (in the film, anyway; the real-life Chikatilo seems to have been a good deal more Obliviously Evil).
Yeah I know. It isnt even what a WDOW actually is.
edited 14th Apr '18 12:14:45 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Even if that happens, if said Villain have a lot of heinous actions he can still stay. I mean, I can totally see Villains as Lord Djbril dying in a cartoonish way and still qualifying.
Also
Chikatilo. Sounds like a interesting movie about how a Dictatorship actually Allows even the Chaotic Evil psycho Serial Killer get it easy even if they aren't in a High Rank.
Which was the Freudian Excuse of his Real Life self? Also, is good having you here again Ambar.
Watch me destroying my countryOlder brother may have been eaten by cannibals during the Holodomor. Mother was a tyrant who beat him frequently. Nazi soldiers raped his mother in front of him during WWII (and impregnated her). Tortured in school by classmates. You can honestly take your pick.
Chikatilo
A few weeks ago, I proposed a guy from a Go Nagai work. After that and the first episode of Cutie Honey Universe, I’ve been in a Nagai mood, so here’s another proposal from one of his works. Thanks to @Lighty for recommending this series to me.
What Is the Work?
Shuten Doji is a 4-Episode OVA based on the manga by Go Nagai.
The Shiba couple want to have a child of their own. One day, demonic figures known as Onis rain down from the sky, including a giant one named Senki, who has a baby boy in his mouth. Senki gives the boy to the Shibas, whom they name Jiro Shutendo. Senki promises to return in 15 years to reclaim the boy. 15 years later, Jiro is in high school with his girlfriend Miyuki (who’s clothes get destroyed in every episode). Jiro starts to see strange visions of demonic creatures out to kill him, alone with discovering powers that he never knew he had such as being invincible. Jiro finds out that he’s actually the powerful Shuten Doji (a famous figure in Japanese mythology), an Oni with the power of light. He must use his powers to defeat Jarai, the creator of the Oni and the one who caused them to engage in war. With him are the aforementioned Senki, and Goki, two Onis who will do anything to protect Jiro.
And that’s all just the first episode. Along the way, Jiro encounters many Oni, some good, some bad, some bad with redeemable qualities, and one who’s incredibly bad; this guy right here.
Who Is he?
Ankoku Jashinkyou Suzerain (which I guess means “Leader”) Majari Yonen, the Oni leader of the Jashinkyo cult trying to bring Jarai and his forces of darkness to Earth by killing Shuten Doji, as he’s the one meant to defeat him, sending out Onis to find and kill anyone who could be the Doji. He only appears in the first two episodes.
What has he done?
In Episode 1, “The Star Hand Kid,” he is first seen talking to one of his cult members, Kitani, who is trying to locate Shuten Doji. Growing impatient, Yonen orders him to hurry up, even praising him for staging a truck accident that showcased Jiro’s powers, before sending Kitani out to give him what he’s capable of (which we won’t see until the next episode).
Episode 2, “Chapter of Goma,” is when he really starts to show what he’s capable of. First starting off the episode explaining the history of Shuten Doji to his followers, he tells them that they shouldn’t take Doji lightly, and that he’s a threat to their plans. After Kitani dies trying to defeat Jiro—while still managing to kill one of his friends, Naojiro—Yonen proceeds to plan a battle pitting Jiro and his friends with his large group of members, kidnapping Jiro’s mother, father, and Miyuki in order to motivate him to arrive at sundown. The battle itself claims all of Jiro’s human friends, along with all of Yonen's own members. At the end of the gauntlet of Onis, Jiro and his surviving friends come across Yonen, who has tied Jiro’s mom, dad, and Miyuki to wooden crosses, levitating them in high above the ground. Commending Jiro for surviving the battle, he drops his father, who is saved by Goki. Yonen then flies away with the other two. Once Jiro and co. catch up to him, Yonen promises to release the two should Jiro offer himself to Jarai, and when Jiro refuses, Yonen uses his psychic powers to bring two deva statues to life to kill everyone. It takes the convenient return of Senki to stop Yonen. With his plans slowly starting to fall apart, Yonen places Miyuki in his grasp, threatening to kill her if Jiro doesn’t toss his sword away, all while using his psychic powers to fight and distract Senki. Jiro pretty much says “fuck you” as he walks up to him and slices him with his sword of light, causing him to let go of Miyuki. With his final breath, Yonen attempts to kill Jiro’s mom, but is distracted when he notices the similarities between her and Jarai, which leads Goki to kill him while distracted.
Redeeming Qualities?
None. He doesn’t show any care for his fellow Onis as they’re slaughtered by Jiro and friends. He also sees Jirai as a source of power, with “his” release being able to grant him his ultimate desires for destruction.
Heinousness?
While he’s not the ultimate villain of the series, he has a quite a number of resources, a goal that would result in the death of millions (at least that's what he thinks Jarai would have done), and a selfish, destructive personality. Even Jarai, the creator of Oni, is revealed to be something much kinder and personal to Jiro, which I won’t get into because it’s a little too confusing for me to explain.
There’s also the Oni Hyoki from the first episode, who I don’t know counts given that he doesn’t do as much terrible stuff as Yonen despite having zero redeeming qualities to his name.
And before anyone asks, yes, there are some good Onis. Heck, one villainous Oni wants to kill Jiro because he killed his dad. Onis are also capable of being friendly to humans, as Senki and Goki can prove.
Conclusion
I think he’s a keep.
edited 14th Apr '18 1:22:55 PM by therealjackieboy
It's Spooky Month!For someone with relatively low powers and Starter Villain in a series filled with powerful demons..
I say
. I was going say no until I read the part of him being a Cultist wanting to end the world,that's a quite high goal.
Plus, the series had 4 episodes and he only acts in one of them, there a limit of how bad he can be in such a small time.
If this was a longer series, I would say no, but given that the series is only of 4 OVA s.
Same, I'm sure that there must be some keepers. I think that a version of Dr. Hell qualifies (and others don't)
edited 14th Apr '18 1:14:47 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Yenon
So speaking of Go Nagai has anyone from Mazinger been discussed. I know its his Magnum Opus and there are like 40 continuites so it would be weird if there wasn't anybody.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
