During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Glad to see that there is another version of Joker who doesnt qualify as a CM but is still played at a sympathetic light. I'll give a
to the peeps who made that Joker behind the scenes. Though its understandable why the villain has so many CM incarnations given that he is an agent of chaos after all..... It would be nice actually if we saw another Joker who doesnt qualify as a CM (Other ones that I knew that doesnt qualify as a CM are the Killing Joke version,1960s version and Brave and the Bold version sooo yeah)
BTW somone added this to the ymmv page of The Riddler. Was his The New 52 incarnation approved.
- His post-Flashpoint version is no slouch either, not only being much more openly violent and sadistic but also, flooding Gotham during Batman's first year and cutting the power, leaving thousands dead and many more without basic resources for at least a month, then later provoking a violent gang war with the Joker and psychologically breaking a single father to the point he snaps and becomes a villain, all either for kicks or just to flaunt his intelligence.
So uh can this version of The Riddler count ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."While I'm working my way through Preacher I thought I'd give some rewrites for Marie and Jody (God coming soon):
- Jesse's zealous grandmother, Marie L'Angelle, views herself an agent of God. Seeing her daughter as nothing but a way to breed a strong male preacher, when Christina runs away and has Jesse, Marie forces the family to stay on her estate, under her abusive control. Having Christina's husband murdered and eventually Christina herself, Marie locks Jesse in an airtight coffin under a lake for weeks at a time, hoping to break him and make him accept God. Capturing Jesse years later, Marie has her servants kill Jesse's girlfriend Tulip and once again tries to break him into worshipping her and her religion.
- Marie's enforcer, Jody, is a sadistic bully of a man. Murdering Jesse's father in front of him, Jody sneers when the young boy bursts into tears. Nailing Jesse's dog's head to a post for humping his leg, Jody savagely beats Jesse for attacking him, making him beg while twisting his arm so much the bone snaps out. When he recaptures Jesse and Tulip for Marie, Jody happily shoots and kills Tulip. In a rematch with Jesse, Jody tries to make Jesse suffer as much as possible and when fatally wounded by Jesse feels nothing but pride at his abuses turning Jesse into a killer.
Alright, for Karju, please see if you can cut it down any, and then add here.
Max (same guy who played Kit); Sorg; The Cook (I'd say it JUST avoids Offscreen Villainy);
DeathWatch COULD be a qualifier, but we need an effortpost (and holy crap, that's a TMNT villain?).
Yeah, for Ripley, at the very least that entry's WAY too long.
MUCH better entries for the Preacher duo.
Cook.
And to answer G-Editor's question.
1. I think the first Far Cry villain was pretty generic. I think there was a Darker and Edgier remake, but I haven't checked it out.
2. Far Cry 2 has one of those "there are no real good guys in war" stories where there are villains on both sides and the "Big Bad" turning out to be an Anti-Villain extremist who the player teams up with at the end of the game to save the remaining, fleeing civilians from a wartorn country.
edited 10th Apr '18 4:27:50 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Adam Sorg as long as it’s not torture porn.
The Cook. I didn’t except Far Cry 5 to have a CM after reading the character page. Especially not after all the stuff the other villains, who didn’t qualify, had done. Seems like I was wrong. That said I’m still a bit disappointed that Joseph Seed didn’t make the cut.
@G-Editor:I remember the Big Bad of the first game being a Mad Scientist who experimented on humans and turned them into mutants. What I don’t remember is his motivation or goal. It also never struck me as that monstrous, but maybe that’s because the focus on the game isn’t really on the story or the (rather one-dimensional) characters but the action.
Never played the second game, but from what I’ve seen and read the main villain of the game has redeeming qualities and is defiantly not a CM. The leaders of the two opposing armies the player is working for, on the other hand, could qualify.
I’m also not sure whether or not the first and second game are part of the same continuity as the other games. But the first game also had a bunch of Spin-offs that take place after the events of main game.
edited 10th Apr '18 4:36:07 AM by NTG
EP: Cameron Winter from Godzilla the series:
Who is he and what does he do?
He's the only recurring human villain in the series.
He first appeared in the episode The Winter of Our Discontent, where he plotted to collect insurance money by having Godzilla to destroy his cilents' properties. To do so, he creates a neuro-transmitter to control Godzilla into causing a lot of damage. He eventually has Godzilla attack a military base so he can get a contract for the destroyed weaponry, showing no regard the number of people that could be killed. Cameron then reveals his true intentions to create a army of Godzilla clones to attack his cilents' properties in order to collect more insurance money to expand his fortune. Fortunately, Randy manage to hack into the transmitter, allowing Nick to destroy the transmitter and free Godzilla from Cameron's control. Randy then produces out the evidence behind Cameron's plot, leaving Cameron to be arrested by the military for his crimes. Cameron then vows revenge on Nick saying "Be seeing you soon, Nickles. You can bet on it!"
Cameron returns in the episode An Early Frost, where he managed to file for parole. Determined to get back at H.E.A.T. and Godzilla for ruining his plans, Cameron managed to obtain cells he harvested from Godzilla to create a giant monster called the Chameleon, which he used to frame Godzilla for various attacks. He eventually ha the Chameleon attack New York, nearly killing everyone in it. After getting everyone to think that Godzilla is responsible for the attacks, he plans to have the Chameleon kill Godzilla so that he can be recognized as a hero for creating it. He then sets a trap for Nick by tricking him into entering his old headquarters and forcing him to watch the Chameleon destroy Godzilla. However, Nick eventually escaped and found that Cameron is broadcasting a mind control signal to the Chameleon from nearby H.E.A.T. headquarters. After the Chameleon is destroyed with a powerful bazooka fired by Phillipe Renaldi (a friend of Nick's), Nick confronted Winter at the H.E.A.T. headquarters, but Winter escaped and detonated several explosive charges in the building to try and kill Nick. Though Nick escaped the explosion unscathed and exposed Winter's activities to the military, Cameron was nowhere to be found. Cameron returns again in the episode Lizard Season, where he created giant robots called Lizard Slayers to destroy Godzilla. He broke three hunters out of prison to have them control the robots to attack Godzilla. He gets the leader of the hunters to shoot and destroy military fighter jets by telling the three that they won't get any payment from him if they are not the ones to personally kill Godzilla, who the military are after as well. Thankfully the pilots escape with parachutes. He then gets H.E.A.T. involved by hacking their ship to attack Godzilla, tricking Godzilla into trying to kill them, though this was unsuccessful. Cameron orders one of the hunters to fire torpedoes at the ship and kill the members of H.E.A.T., but unlike his boss, he has standards and won't kill other humans, so Cameron overrides the robot he's in and forces it to fire at the ship. When the hunters are caught by the military, Cameron betrays them by claiming that they stole the machines. Despite the Lizard Slayers' failure to destroy Godzilla and the hunters being sent back to jail, the government was very impressed by the Lizard Slayers' capabilities and put in a hefty order for Cameron to make models for the military. Cameron sends up a message to Nick, taunting him of his success, much to Nick's anger.
This is his last appearance on the show. It was cancelled before he could face punishment for his actions.
Heinousness?
He's the only recurring human villain on the show. Most of the villains are giant mindless monsters with no moral agency. There are aliens from a three parter, but they are a group and can't be judged. They have many more resources, so they don't effect his chances of qualifying.
For a human villain with his level of resources, he does pretty well in a show like this. He endangers the lives of countless people on multiple occasions, and tries to outright murder the protagonists. In his first episode, it's stated that he endangered the lives of 500 people at the military base he ha Godzilla attack. In his second episode, he has his monster attack New York and nearly kill a bunch of people before trying to kill Nick in an explosion. In his last episode, he gets one of the hunters to fire on the military, tries to kill the human protagonists again, and betrays the hunters, framing them for the theft of his robots in addition to the crimes they actually did commit, with one of them now facing attempted murder charges for something they didn't even do because of him taking over their robot and making it fire at the ship.
He's bad enough.
jjj
on Cameron Winters. Funny thing this is another example of someone I was thinking about bringing up but never got around too.
Although supposedly he gets what's coming to him in a video game based on the series. May not be canon but take of that what you will.
edited 10th Apr '18 5:31:12 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Winters
Oh yeah forgot to mention this but Chiros from Kong The Animated Series was no. 2 for Paul Dobson as he was also Naraku in Inyushua
edited 10th Apr '18 5:41:10 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
the Cook and Winters
Also agree with no new qualifiers for Warcraft with Legends vol.3. Through on an unrelated note, they implied Kel'thuzad was Killed Off for Real after his second death. But he isn't a qualifier so overall a non issue.
edited 10th Apr '18 6:07:16 AM by xie323
Yes to Cook, thank you so much for finally rewriting those Preacher candidates (Inwas meaning to get to those myself) and... uh, from what I remember of Godzilla: The Series, was the threat of human loss really that explicit in his episodes? I think remember it generally played that aspect of the series pretty safe, but it's been years — if the show is literally up and saying hundreds of lives are being endangered, I have no hesitation saying yes.
edited 10th Apr '18 6:48:13 AM by Scraggle
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Sure Go ahead. I'd do it personally but I already reserved the IDW TMNT comics which are currently at 80 issues (not counting spin-offs) plus I need to catch up on 30 epsiodes of Kamen Rider Build if i want to do the effort-posts from there as well as some university work, so yeah really busy.
edited 10th Apr '18 7:15:42 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."For Jody, this...doesn't seem right:
- Well-Intentioned Extremist: Arguably this, in regards to Jesse. He's paid to be Marie L'Angelle's top henchman and enforcer, but seems to take a special, personal interest in "toughening" her grandson up and teaches him many useful skills like fighting, marksmanship, horseback riding and automobile repair. Jody, despite his extremely harsh and borderline psychopathic methods, seems to genuinely want Jesse to become (what Jody would consider) a "good" man.
Also, Scraggle, for DeathWatch, here
are his appearances (though TMNT wiki says he's in issues 10-13, but not 14, so go figure).
edited 10th Apr '18 7:32:06 AM by ACW
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Oh crap! I will go in there soon enough. You still have the link mir? I'll try at my best to do it even though the anime shows that I want to watch and creating my own story is in my way >.< (Gotta make dem chapter 2 btw)

Jeez, I thought The Riddler would make the cut, but I guess not.
Say I forgot to ask but speaking of the Far Cry series has anyone discussed Far Cry or Far Cry 2 before to see if there's anyone who might qualified.
edited 9th Apr '18 10:55:20 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff