During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@Lord YAM: Try EP the Alienist guy and let the forum decide
edited 9th Apr '18 8:58:39 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI've read The Alienist, and I don't think the killer counts. It's been a while, but I distinctly remember numerous characters—even the protagonists themselves—expressing sympathy for the murderer and the narrative implied that he would have been a different person were it not for his awful backstory.
Now then, it's official April 10th, so I've got two things to discuss....I'll get to Telltale Batman: The Enemy Within later, but for now....
What's the work?
Far Cry 5 is the latest entry in the hella-fun FPS series by Ubisoft. With each game being its own, separate entity from the rest, 5 is no different, taking the player to the rural plains of Hope County, Montana, where you take control of a rookie Deputy Sheriff.
Strange things are happening in Hope County....a fanatical cult known as "Eden's Gate" has sprung up out of seemingly nowhere, lead by the enigmatic "Father," and soon enough, the cult initiates a hostile takeover of Hope County, where hundreds upon hundreds of people are kidnapped and brainwashed into becoming members of Eden's Gate so as to amass enough people to survive the prophesied "Collapse" of society.
Now, for all their vile acts and depraved personalities, the four leaders of the Project at Eden's Gate, the Seed family, do not count...
- "The Father," Joseph Seed, is the one behind everything in the game, and, despite his Well-Intentioned Extremist claims that he's just trying to save mankind by letting the Collapse purge most of them then restart it with his own cult, he's truthfully just a Knight Templar madman who murdered his newborn daughter just to prove his "faith." What disqualifies him, however, is that he does care for his fellow "siblings", not to such a point that it endangers his mission, mind, but enough that he breaks down sobbing after all three have been killed.
- "The Siren," Faith Seed, is a young woman and the sole "sister" of the Seeds. She uses the toxic drug called "Bliss" to slowly corrupt and twist the minds of her victims until they either fall under her spell, or she forces them to kill themselves. She's easily the most sympathetic of the Seeds, being heavily implied to have been forced into the position by Joseph and not even be the same woman throughout the whole game, just different girls Joseph forced into the position.
- "The Inquisitor," John Seed, is the so-called most sadistic and brutal of the Seeds siblings, responsible for torturing people until they "confess" their sins, at which points John brands the sin onto them. After they have "atoned," John flays the piece of flesh off of them and displays it as a trophy in his house. Ultimately, John is both not heinous enough, AND has a godawful backstory of being raised by abusive parents who beat him until he came to enjoy it just to escape the pain.
- Finally, "the Soldier," Jacob Seed, is the ACTUAL most sadistic, monstrous member of the Seed family, an utter lunatic who only helps Eden's Gate in his mad quest to "purge" the world of "weakness." He slaughters the sick and elderly of his prisoners, tortures and brainwashes the rest, forces them to fight each other to the death to weed out the "weak," and is an all-around unlikable prick. For all his evil, however (I came this close to proposing him), Jacob does have a sort-of loyalty for Joseph, and is ultimately heavily implied to have gone insane when he was forced to kill and eat his best friend during a war years ago, and all of his actions since are just a sad, deranged way of justifying it.
So, one would understandable think there are no Keeps.
One would be wrong.
Who is our candidate?
"The Cook" is the Arc Villain of the sidequest "A Dish Served Cold." The psychopathic second-in-command to Jacob Seed, the Cook stands out as perhaps the single most despicable villain in the game.
What has he done?
We are sent after the Cook as part of Jess Black, one of the supporting characters', sidequest.
As you come across camps run by the Cook, you see that he starves and tortures dozens of people, keeping them cramped in cages until he enacts his way of "punishment" on them.
That being crucifying them, then either letting them die from the elements, or burning them alive in front of the other prisoners.
As you hunt the Cook, you come across a hellton of crucified corpses, burnt to a crisp or otherwise, and have to save several innocent people before the Cook's men execute them.
You eventually find the Cook, burning a man alive and cackling at his screams, and murder the prick where he stands.
Now, this alone probably wouldn't be enough to let the Cook count....what DOES make him count is what Jess tells us how the Cook earned his name.
Many years ago, the Cook kidnapped a family of four: Two children—both girls— and their parents. The Cook spent days starving them of both food and water, until finally, he crucified the parents while the kids watched.
He continued starving the foursome, mocking and taunting the little girls until they were sobbing and begging for even a scrap of food....the Cook obliged. He giddily chopped off the parents' toes one by one, forcefed them to the children, then burned the parents alive as the kids watched, laughing all the way.
Jess was one of those girls. Hence her getting you to help murder the bastard.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Absolutely none. The Cook is an insane pyromaniac justifying his sadism and cruelty under a fanatical desire to "ascend" to Heaven. Unlike the Seeds and all other members of Eden's Gate, the Cook is simply out for his own brand of Knight Templar destruction, to such an extent that he disobeys orders from the Seeds to spare several hostages just to burn them alive.
Heinousness?
For a sidequest villain with as limited resources as he has? The Cook passes with flying colors.
And though his torment of Jess isn't blatantly onscreen and in your face? Jess recounts the tale in grim description, you hear the screams of the family echoing around as she tells you, and we see plenty of evidence that stuff like this is the Cook's regular motif. It's also written down in Jess's bio, so that's another bit of description to make sure it does not count as Offscreen Villainy.
Final Verdict?
I say Keep.
edited 9th Apr '18 9:08:03 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Cook.
Kinda reminds me of Chief Shirakawa: a one-off villain in a story where the four main villains in charge of a deadly organization don't count.
It's Spooky Month!So, because it is now April 10th, I will now discuss Warcraft Chronicle Volume 3.
So I have determined that nobody new counts considering it is a recollection of Warcraft 3, however Cho'gall's entry has to be updated, essentially the portion that mentions Me'dan is now officially non canon so it may have to be cut, you can tell because the index says "Me'dan, go to page 404 for reference" there is less than 300 pages in Volume 3 and 404 refers to an error in code, I think it is safe to say Me'dan isn't canon anymore but there is new info that should be implemented instead that is in the volume.
edited 9th Apr '18 9:25:07 PM by Knack
So uh what Master Joseph was trying to say is that this was added to the TMMT Mirage tree:
- The Image-era villain DeathWatch started out as Johnny Lee Raeburn, an elementary school janitor who was arrested in 1976 after he butchered twenty-eight children, all of whom were "savaged" so severely that "by the time I was finished with them, they were happy to die!" While serving multiple life sentences Johnny "volunteered" to be the sole passenger of the Seeker 3, a spaceship built to make an exploratory one-way trip to the edge of the Milky Way. Decades into the journey the ship encountered an alien probe which formed a Psychic Link with Johnny, whose evil overwhelmed the machine, allowing him to possess it and become the cybernetic monster DeathWatch. Using his new powers to return to Earth, DeathWatch began killing everyone involved in his trial by feeding on their life force and fear, bringing him into conflict with the TMNT, Savage Dragon and Vanguard. During the battle DeathWatch mentally tortures Donatello to the point of causing brain death and afterward flees to his hometown, all 453 residents of which he slaughters and puts on display, with the last victim being his own mother. When the heroes catch up with him DeathWatch fatally wounds Donatello's cyborg body before escaping into outer space, where he goes from being "the worst mass murderer on Earth to the worst in the universe" by manipulating a robotic Slave Race into helping him commit genocides for "fun" and to amass enough power to turn the Earth into a living Hell.
Pretty sure tgis guy wasn't approved or else I'd remember it considering how bad this sounds.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."With the Alienist the thing is that during the final confrontation Dury asks "Is that what you think is the cause" when Laszlo tries to reach him about the abuse mommy dearest put him through. In any case there's too much ambiguity there.
In any case what about Libby Hatch from Angel of Darkness? She's MUCH nastier than Dury and has a pretty weak excuse all things considered.
and
Cook
edited 9th Apr '18 9:28:34 PM by LordYAM
I'm not to familiar with War craft, though I guess that should be done.
Oh and I'm also pretty sure I know who the Telltale baddie is. That would put his actor in the high limits when it comes to CM actors if approved.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Alright, I'll go ahead and knock out Telltale Batman now....
Surprisingly? No one counts.
- "John Doe," the man who will become the Joker as the game goes on, is perhaps one of the most sympathetic interpretations of the Clown Prince of Crime. John has a genuine mental and emotional disorder that causes him to say stuff he instantly regrets, try to make people like him/think he's funny in awkward situations, and has sudden mood swings that end with him beating himself up over how much of a self-perceived idiot he is. Most notably? Depending on the player's choices, John can become an Anti-Hero if you treat him with respect, and he will only come into conflict with Batman due to his willingness to kill. If the player is a jackass to John, he WILL become the Joker of classic lore, and a vile one at that, but ultimately, he's still played as the emotionally stunted, genuinely disturbed person he is.
- The Riddler, Edward Nigma, was proposed IMMEDIATELY after his arc concluded by someone who wasn't aware I had reserved the work, and he actually was getting upvotes...unfortunately, as I kinda knew was gonna end up happening? Riddler has been disqualified since then. As it turns out, he was once a "normal" supervillain who just robbed banks and wanted cash, however, after willingly subjecting himself to lethal chemical experiments, he was infected by the biovirus called LOTUS, which increases brain capacity and intelligence....at the cost of attacking specific brain cells that slowly degenerate the brain into insanity. Thus, the Riddler we see, who mutilates people, nearly kills thousands, and is an all-around prick? Is only the way he is because his brain chemistry was altered. Now, interestingly, Riddler is AWARE that his mind has been altered, and gleefully seems to embrace it, but this is never shown to be anything other than LOTUS jacking up his brain. So yeah, he unfortunately....doesn't make it, despite being the most heinous villain the game thus far.
- Any and all other villains (Harley Quinn; Amanda Waller; etc) are either not heinous enough, or have serious disqualifying features.
So, once again, the Telltale take on Batman gives us no Keeps. Though I'm totally fine with this for Joker, as the version of the character in these games is absolutely fascinating and refreshingly unique, I am a mite ticked that Riddler got disqualified for no real reason other than to justify why a version of Riddler would be so brutal.
Still, it is what it is, and that's Telltale Batman in a nutshell.
edited 9th Apr '18 10:13:43 PM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Oh man I was a bit behind so didn't know they gave The Riddler some issues :
edited 9th Apr '18 10:56:46 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Found this unapproved entry on the Critical Role page. I haven't watched the episodes where Vox Machina fought Ripley (I saw them meet her in the Briarwoods arc where she temporarilly allied herself with the group) so I don't know much about her more heinous actions (I could watch ahead to see those episodes like I did with Raishan though).
Cut and I PMed the troper.
- Dr Anna Ripley is a ruthless Mad Scientist who was exiled from the Dwendallian Empire for performing human experiments for the creation of chemical weapons. Ripley judges whether an action is "right" or "wrong" based solely on whether it furthers scientific advancement, regardless of the cost in life. Meeting the Briawoods, she sided with them not out of loyalty to their cause or the promise of power, but because Whitestone under them would give her the resources she needed to continue her research. And so she helped them slaughter Percival's entire family, without a hint of remorse or the Tragic Monster aspects her masters possess. She became fascinated with Percy's firearm creations, eventually capturing and torturing him for information and leaving him to starve to death once he's served his purpose, shortly before he met Vox Machina. While Percy only ever saw his firearms as a means to an end, to Ripley the creation of powerful weapons is the end in itself. When first encountered by Vox Machina, Ripley does everything in her power to convince them she's an innocent victim on the Briarwoods, all the while setting up multiple plans to betray them. One of which is only discovered much later: a magic listening device attached to the gun Vox Machina took from her, which allowed her to spy on their every move. Once Ripley learned of the Vestiges of Divergence, she wasted no time in seeking out Cabal's Ruin and brutally murdering its owner. When confronted by the party, Ripley shows no remorse for her actions, reveals a human-supremacist philosophy and sets a brutal explosion trap to leave them on death's door, while attacking them with a group of mercenaries that includes a young fan Vox Machina met long before, Kynan Leore, who later reveals that Ripley mentally tortured him into turning on them. She also willingly made a pact with the Shadow Demon Orthax, the source of Percy's corruption, because she felt she could learn more from him because she could sacrifice more than Percy's moral code would allow him to. During their battle, Ripley focuses on killing Percy above all else despite his willingness to forgive her, and succeeds. One of the most vile and personal antagonists on the show, Vox Machina had no qualms with giving her one of the most brutal kills of any adversary they'd fought.
edited 9th Apr '18 10:28:33 PM by Awesomekid42
Yes for the Cook, Master Joseph already explained that entry and as I said, we'll need an EP before we decide if the character is a keeper and I'm fine for updating Cho'gall's entry.
I don't believe so, the Big Bad in one of them is very much a Noble Demon but that's all I know about the villains.
edited 9th Apr '18 10:42:30 PM by 43110

@Joe Blitz Aye! Good luck with your movie project too. You need it![[thumb up] [tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png)
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."