During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I've thought long and hard about the current topic. Here's my two cents:
The short response? The fic either needs to explicitly be AU (be it a reimagining like Brawl or Breakfast or an adaptation like Fire Emblem Awakening: Invisible Ties) or adhere to the rules of canon.
Let's say you got a fic based on child's show or YA novel, if the medium employs Discretion Shots, fantastic metaphors for real-life atrocities like torture, or such, so should the fic. If the source material goes visceral, regardless of its genre, it's fair game for the fic.
I'd offer a bit of wiggle room so as to not stunt creative freedom (it is a fanwork after all), but otherwise, that's a definite standard I'd like to uphold.
For example, I recall someone recently wanting to make people fall to their death. Not an outrageous crime. Mass murder is seen in every medium not aimed to toddlers or babies. Actually clipping the wings is too much. However, if the candidate is a villain who uses magic to simply poof them away while the victims are mid-flight, and the results are played with analogous horror by the narrative and witnesses (and no gory descriptions), perfect. And that must happen in a work it could conceivably happen (i.e. where magic exists and canon villains might do something like that: MLP, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc.)
As for the AU clause, it needs to be explicit. A Word of God, story summary, author notes, or the story itself should make it abundantly clear it's an AU. If so, everything's fair game. Implied is too ambiguous to let it through.
Using the Pony POV Series as an example, I understand bobg's points, but the fact remains: punching a pregnant gut will simply not happen in MLP. Heck, just like Camperbf said, it doesn't happen in a kid's show anyway. Nuh-uh. No way, these are the kinds of standard we have to uphold. If it doesn't happen in the medium or show, that's no bueno. Also, that Frozen example? Cut it too. It's got stuff that doesn't happen in Disney or kid's show.
If that sounds unfair to the people who wrote with effort and love, I confess it might be draconian, but didn't this thread to have to shove a little to reach the quality of C Ms we have now? Also, having those up wouldn't be fair to the ones that DO make the cut. That DO look like they belong. Warthog's Dormmamu from that Marvel fic? My Medusa from that Soul Eater fic? In fact, it creates a strange dissonance. The uninformed troper could look at that list and go, "Wait. So what's the most proper example?"
I'm not trying to shit on people's hard work (and, as we know, storytelling can be an onerous thing). Heck, I wrote and read fanfiction myself! But in the context of this thread, we have to create standard for works that could have C Ms. Fanworks are no different, but it seems they require a caveat or two to make them. And that caveat, in my humble opinion? AU or an Original Flavor.
edited 29th Mar '18 8:42:20 AM by erazor0707
Personally speaking in regards to that one Frozen fic, I think that that one would be more common sense. Theoretically speaking, no one would reasonably consider suggesting it because it would clearly be exploiting such topics such as rape or incest for shock value. As for things like Brawl, I do get the idea of it being an AU that completely reinterprets the source material, but I still personally lean towards fanfics not having to adhere to the canon series because that honestly sounds more like a personal preference than a legitimate reason to uphold the "jives with the setting" rule.
Don't get me wrong, while I personally wouldn't want to upvote a villain from a fanfic like MLP, if it has a legitimate plot that doesn't exploit darker subject matters but are intertwined with the narrative, by all means, I find it as a valid contender.
edited 29th Mar '18 8:50:35 AM by AustinDR
Honestly, if let's say, a Mario fanfic was done, I believe the heinous standard would be slightly higher and have villains worse than Dimentio or King Boo, but not by much. I feel like our standards for Fan Fiction should make it a similar heinous standard to the show/game/anime/film etc. I don't want to have a fan-fiction based on a kids show with a candidate, but the fan-fiction also has sex scenes in it and gore, unless it's some sort of satire on actual fan-fics like that and a reimagining of the universe. It's all about taste, and an MLP villain beating a pregnant women, feels very tasteless and something out of ASOIAF.
That said, I don't want there to be too many standards added to Fan-fiction, it should have almost the exact same rules as fiction done by actual artists and producers.
edited 29th Mar '18 8:50:58 AM by ReynTime250
Really, despite fanfiction being such a controversial topic, we don't actually see too many of them proposed (except for not too long ago when we got like 7 in a row for RWBY). We can always ask the proposer if the work has a real story, and it should be clear from the EP if it's another Cupcakes. As for things that have rape and stuff but also have a story, I'm not sure. We allow works with all sorts of things as long as they have a story in other mediums, should there be a double-standard for fan works? I wouldn't propose a candidate from a MLP fanwork who had crimes which I'd consider too taboo, but that's just a personal preference thing.
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That sounds more like having someone who had actually worked on the show or were at least contributors to it make the fan story or whatever. Again, I really feel that it's more of a preference than an actual qualifier. If that's the case, then we should remove examples from bad films or whatever. But of course we don't because at that point, the candidate meets all of the criteria despite the quality of the film they're in.
Yes, taste is a factor, but it is not an automatic part of the criteria.
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If they're using rape or gore for the sake of it, it shouldn't take much to reject them. Take Cooper from that one FNAF story. He murders the five children like in canon solely for greed. From that, if we're going by the standards of the games, he doesn't proceed to excessively kill the kids. But then you have the killer from Dormitabis who kills 11 children, but he resorts to raping a 15 year old girl. It does not add anything to the game and comes off as a poor man's method of making the Purple Guy edgy as possible. It shouldn't be said the latter would be denied.
edited 29th Mar '18 9:11:17 AM by AustinDR
I agree with giving a "burden of proof" to whoever brings up a fan work character — it should be common sense that someone shouldn't be proposing worthless schlock, especially since we now have clear rules against such works outlined in the FAQ. What I can't necessarily agree with us treating every fanfic that comes up as a case-by-case basis, because that potentially runs into the same objectivity issues that have fueled this controversy.
The problem with "borrowing" by the way, is a vast many fanworks, included many if not most I've seen pass through this thread in the past, is that the fanfic is still such a different beast at the end content-and-tone-wise that it doesn't make sense to apply canon standards onto that. Subsequently, that makes judging the standard of fics that do fit the mold of the original show more closely easier since there's less of a change in heinousness — but why should that apply to fics that don't remotely resemble what they're based on?
So, we appear to have a whole range of opinions over the map, some abstaining from the debate entirely. That's fine. To make things official? I'm going to bring up a tally to see that we can clearly resolve this issue through a vote.
So, as stands, what we decide to do with this rule (a candidate from a fan work must adhere to canon standards of heinousness excepting cases where the setting is overhauled to something new) is....
- A) Leave the rule as is. No alterations needed and, if necessary, conclusively cut any examples listed that may violate this clause.
- B) Leave the rule as is but alter it. Redefine more strictly what constitutes as an "overhaul," flex our standards a little bit or allow a modicum of wiggle room, etc.
- C) Slash the rule entirely. Cut the rule in all forms and let every fan work proposed — provided they're not "shlock-shock" — stand on its own.
- D) Something different — if we can propose something else we can all agree on? By all means, throw it out there.
Just to make it clear where I stand? For now, I vote C for one reason only: to preserve objectivity and keep a consistent standard. I think keeping this rule as is just allows too much room for continued confused controversies, double standards, and hypocrisy to manifest.
I'm going to be out for most of the day driving back home from BC, but until then? Let's rally some votes and I say majority rules for whatever people seem to agree on the most — and that means definitively implementing the result in this thread for good with all tropers, new and old, expected to follow it.
Let's begin.
edited 29th Mar '18 9:19:27 AM by Scraggle
Hoo boy. It's a hard pick between B and C since I'm not opposed to potential candidates coming from a fic that's darker than the source material and feel both options gel with my personal standards. I think ultimately B is the best choice since C might be a bit too lenient (under those rules we'd probably get more darkfic character proposals like Bowser's raping, child-mutilating brother from that one Mario proposal a while back, or the aforementioned Disney Princess raping Ulfric).
Ultimately though I see nothing wrong with a bit of wiggle room with fanfic candidates and think that judging them on a case by case basis works best.
On fanfic topic........I'm just...............going to ditto on what Fried Warthog said.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Finally got my RoboCop write-ups finished.
- Frank Miller's RoboCop: Captain Carl Seltz is the leader of the Rehabilitation Concepts mercenaries. Longing to overtake the city's police force, Seltz and his mercenaries assist Margaret Love in her schemes to destroy Alex Murphy's reputation. Seltz allows the unhinged Kong to eliminate criminals in the city, not caring about the collateral damage that ensues in the process. He later orders one of his men to assassinate Officer Reed, before telling him he can kill Anne Lewis as well. After Reed is killed and Murphy is framed for his murder, Seltz and his team try to kill Alex Murphy multiple times. Afterwards, Seltz and his team ambush and murder several police officers inside of a safe house, all while he gloats that their deaths will be blamed on the rioters and that his mercenaries will be able to "avenge" their deaths.
- Revolution (2010) & Road Trip (2012) (Dynamite Comics): Edwina Odenkirk is the new chief executive of OCP who wants to take over all of Old Detroit. With dozens of ED-209s as her disposal, Odenkirk fires all of the police officers and manipulates the media to her advantage. After riot leader Mason Vogler is arrested, she frees him and allows him to reign more chaos in the city, all so she'll be able to deploy the ED-309s and show off how powerful they are. As the ED-309s slaughter the looters, several innocents are caught in the crossfire—all of which Odenkirk is indifferent too. After an ED-309 goes rogue, destroys a military base, and tries to declare war on Canada, Odenkirk sells five ED-309s to the Prime Minister so she could recover her losses. She later sends new robotic hounds to kill Alex Murphy and his allies before turning the public against them as well. When the OCP shareholders try to fire Odenkirk for the damage she's done, she immediately threatens them all to sign over their shares to her and to take responsibility for what's happened; Odenkirk then forces all of them to commit suicide. Despite claiming she cares about Old Detroit, Odenkirk's primary concern is making as much money as possible, regardless of the innocents caught in the crossfire.
- Dead or Alive (Boom! Studios): John Killian is an arms dealer recently released from prison. Determined to destroy Old Detroit and to ruin the Old Man's legacy, Killian activates an initiative where the police confiscate unregistered weapons in the city, before using the initiative to start a riot against the police. As Killian's men use the confiscated guns for their own means, Killian murders liquor store owner Walter Hutch, using his death to rile the rioters. As he prepares to sell the ED-2000Xs on the Black Market, Killian tortures undercover officer Mason to death before luring several police officers into an ambush that gets several of them killed. After he's arrested for Hutch's murder, Killian kills two officers and escapes custody. Once Killian returns, he starts another riot by releasing a broadcast stating that OCP is spying on them, and later goes on to murder Mayor Gibson. As the riots escalate, Killian frees all the convicts from prison and leads an assault against the police force, shortly before he attempts to murder the Old Man. Although Killian only wanted to get revenge on the Old Man, his methods of vengeance nearly destroyed all of Old Detroit and resulted in the deaths of many police officers and civilians.
Alright I tried to stay out of this but since its a vote.
I'm going with B. Im siding with Fried on this as while l do think that fic's should be given a bit more leniency, C would be opening up a can of worms that might let in awful candiaties that we've cut down on.
edited 29th Mar '18 9:59:11 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Choosing between B and C is tough. I think I'll go with B for now, with an emphasis on lenience. Just make it broad enough that we can still keep out Dark Fics and schlock but that we aren't overly restrictive.
Perhaps in contrast to what I said before, I think I'll vote B.
I namely want to avoid Ron the Death Eater examples that have no point to them and similar problem characters. But I kinda wanna do C, but I think B might be for the best.
...Though now I wonder if I'm just cowarding out...
I’ve stayed away from most of the discussion and I’m still unsure what to do, but C sounds like the best option to me. Everyone has a different opinion about what’s “to dark” or “not appropriate” so it’s best to keep things simple for everyone. I don’t think that this will result in a flood of grimdark, edgy My Little Pony OC candidates. The contributors in this thread know better than to do something like that.
TL;DR: I vote for option C.
I'd asked because I posted this
and got enough votes and that did this
, but hadn't heard back from anyone, so I was afraid I jumped the gun a bit.

I...
agree with Scraggle.
Now I shall explain:
I have felt... uncomfortable giving fanfics "special treatment." I have felt that we should be encouraging fan works - or "transformative works" which is a phrase I picked up last year - rather than discouraging it. But I agreed with the whole "must be canon compliant" thing to prevent grimderp bullshit. But there is a thin line, I believe. And we are crossing it now.
I had that uneasiness within me for ages, and I've ignored it until Scraggle's post. No more.
I will agree with Scraggle. If there's a point to the story, then it should be judged on its own merits. It should stand on its own. If it has no more point than The Unfunnies, than be gone with it. Hell, we have Uwe Boll villains listed, not to mention Adaptational Villainy and what not galore.
Like, I got more into Transformative Fiction late last year. I feel very strongly about the creative freedom of fans. And I think our rules should be more specific than demanding canon compliance. I think Hate Fics and pure Ron the Death Eater stuff should be banned unless there's some sort of good reason for it. As a potentially weird example, we have that evil version of Batman from Catwoman Guardian Of Gotham and Lex from The Dark Knight Strikes Again, if that explains where I'm coming from.
Taste is important. We should not allow pointless shlock. But I don't want to discourage creative fans. And you might argue "Not all fans are creative in a good way." Neither are all "real" artists and writers.
And yeah, I guess they could write original fiction, but I think that misses the point of creatively playing with the source material. Again, it might not be a "good" creation, but that doesn't mean you can't have wonderful fans out there making something great. As an aside, I'm writing fanfiction right now, but I've written it as such that I can pass it off as original. No, you can't read it yet, go away.
This is slightly disjointed due to typing it all at once, but I hope I got my point across.