During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Oshmann, Ephraim,Ettienne and kamen Rider examples
BTW here's an interesting fact about Faiz in that it has a The Hero Dies ending (probably the only one in the franchise)
Fanfiction debate...... uuh you know what. Look at the time. Places to go and people to see. Sorry for just coming and going.
edited 29th Mar '18 12:56:18 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Faiz duo
As for fanfic? Ax the "jives with the setting" rule. It's more trouble than it's worth. We already have rules banning Ron the Death Eater and Torture Porn, that should weed out all the truly awful examples.
Yeah, I dont have any opinion on the fanfics in general and I'm going to stay away from this convo and rather speak about this on P Ms.
Anyways, off-topic from the fanfics debacle.........Here's Hildyr's writeup. Albeit this just hold a little bit temporarily. If I ended up seeing the Lets Play of Cinderella Phenomenon, I'll update her writeup but as for now, this is her temporary one:
- Cinderella Phenomenon: Hildyr is a witch who has a huge resentment towards humans. Prior to the main story, she murdered the ten year old daughter of her former friend, Delora out of spite. When she met with the King of Angellie, she forcefully rapes him and then using her new position as the Queen of Angellie, making it a living hell after she kickstarts the war of Humans,Fairies and Witches alike. When a certain family refused to gave their son to Hildyr because he was a magically gifted witch, She murders them with the exception of their son and then turns the son into her own apprentice. She is also emotionally and mentally abusive towards her daughter, Lucette, by brainwashing her and isolating her from the outside world. In one of the bad endings, Hildyr then tries to forcibly absorbs Lucette’s magic power and does not hesitate to render her to become an Empty Shell when Lucette refuses to co-operate with her and then use her daughter’s current state so that she could force her former apprentice to working with her again. Despite she was used to be a good witch a long time ago and it was implied that she was corrupted, Hildyr is doing her atrocities with her own free will and is motivated to do so by hatred towards humans at best and her sadistic whims at worst.
Any objections and thoughts before I add this to the drafts? Yeah, I know I should have saw the LP of it or play the game before I do the proper write-up for her. But ah well, this will be the temporary one for now. Will update it in the future.
edited 29th Mar '18 2:15:07 AM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."I'll read all the effortposts later today, but I think once RoboCop is launched, I'll add a header at Marvel Comics that says something like "All other comics under Marvel or related imprints (such as Icon Comics) can be found either at Comic Books or at the appropriate franchise subpage (such as RoboCop, Conan the Barbarian, etc)."
I'll read it later.
HT: Really? Should it then go under both the main comics with their own pages AND Marvel?
edited 29th Mar '18 3:46:40 AM by ACW
@ACW What's your opinion on my Hildyr's temporary write-up
For the Pony POV example..... Both bobg and Scraggs having a pretty persuasive argument..... I'm just leaning towards abstain rn
edited 29th Mar '18 3:39:56 AM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
to Ephraim Waite (I kind of love how Lovecraft's monsters are so varied, and distinct despite their seeming similarities), Oshmaan the Executioner, Kitazaki and Masahiko Minami.
Incidentally I found this for the Robin Hood:
Complete Monster: Isabella's husband, Squire Thornton, although he only appears physically in one episode, is quickly established to be this; even Vaisey has more redeeming qualities than this guy. Even before he showed up, he was established as being a vile and abusive husband, but when he actually appears, it quickly becomes apparent why Isabella is justifiably terrified of him; he openly threatens her or people close to her with physical violence or worse if she shows the slightest defiance to him, treats her as little better than a slave or possession, kills one of his own men simply for looking at parts of a treasure hoard they've found and when Isabella (with Robin's help) contrives to try and get rid of him, Thorton flies off the handle, comes storming back into Nottingham Castle and threatens to kill her in front of everyone. Overall, Thornton is such a nasty piece of work that even those among the outlaws who don't like Isabella empathize with her for having to suffer him, and no tears are shed when Isabella, in her own words, finally does "what she should have done years ago" and fatally stabs the evil bastard.
I've cut it as it obviously was never effort posted
Now I've never seen this show, but looking over the main page and YMMV, I doubt they could qualify (what with the complicated Sir Guy leaving babies in the woods to die, and Prince John setting churches full of people on fire) it sounds more like their mixing being unlikable with being heinous.
Still if anyone who knows the show better wants to weight in.
edited 29th Mar '18 4:55:10 AM by MGD107
The way I see it, the problem here is the fact that we made exceptions for fics that go for setting overhauls. It's the entire reason everyone trips over themselves when they try to justify things like the Pony POV series having "legitimate" examples. If there is a solution here, it's cutting examples from setting overhaul works ans sticking closer to the idea that the content has to plausibly be included in the canon work. If it means cutting the examples from There Will Be Brawl and Breakfast of the Gods, well I won't lost any sleep over it.
edited 29th Mar '18 5:38:46 AM by VeryMelon
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It was spoken extensively as to why Brawl and Breakfast are staying.
At this point, I feel that there should be a tally. I, for example, agree with Scraggle's points of treating a fanfic on its own merits than by what is depicted in canon. As long as it has a legitimate plot and doesn't use darker subjects as shock value. I feel that it would make it more consistent, and we could abolish the "jives with the setting" as well.
edited 29th Mar '18 6:13:53 AM by AustinDR
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Dude its not gonna happen. Like Frozen says, Let It Go.
Oh also late to party but yeah that Conan run is 100 percent Canon to Marvel. Heck its main villain Set is actually a recurring villain in the verse whoose dueled everyone from Thor to Doctor Strange.
edited 29th Mar '18 6:10:45 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."![]()
Like Scraggle asked 43, can't you explain your opinion? This is not a "gotcha" question - I'd honestly like to hear what people who support this canon compliance thing say see as its benefits, especially since it keeps being said that it's not actually a quality thing.
edited 29th Mar '18 6:38:39 AM by nrjxll
@ACW Oh! Btw, I sent the Hildyr writeup to the draft. Hopefully you can at least try to play with it. And yeah, keep in mind that this is just a temporary write-up. It will be updated once I either saw the game or the OP who E Pd Hildyr have a second thought.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."If we have any "canon compliance" rule, then I stand by what I said here
.
If not, we should obviously have a rule against Torture Fics and the like, and people should make it clear that a fanwork has an actual story when effort-posting it.
It's less about quality and more about verisimilitude, if that makes any sense. Like, anyone could make a setting update just to add a complete monster to a work that doesn't have one or would look like it could have one by our rules, but its not fun or interesting for me to discuss a My Little Pony fanfic with a guy who beats pregnant women into miscarriages . If I must, then I'd rather vote up a villain who creatively fits our criteria and the plausibilities of the canon work.
I'm well aware that this is more of a preference than anything else, and that's why I'm aware no one will agree with me.
Writeup for Kitazaki and Minami:
- Kitazaki/Dragon Orphnoch is the youngest and cruelest member of the Lucky Clover, possessing the power to turn everything he touches into ash. Shortly before the events of the series, Kitazaki took part in a massacre that left several Ryusei students dead, breaking Mari's neck himself. When in the presence of other Orphnochs, Kitazaki uses his abilities to physically hurt them, such as pressing his fist against their cheeks. Even when not working for Smart Brain, Kitazaki enjoys murdering humans whenever he can, something which he sees as fun. After obtaining the Delta Gear, Kitazaki uses it to satisfy his boredom with violent confrontations with other Riders, and tortures another Lucky Clover member when he tries to steal it from him. If the mission he is given is not fun enough, Kitazaki creates "games" to challenge the rest of the Lucky Clover, such as promising to slap other members in the arm if he kills their target first, knowing this would leave them without a limb. In one of his games, Kitazaki decides to kill their king, the Arch-Orphnoch, just to prove his superiority, despite having the information that this would result in the extinction of his entire race. A sadistic, narcissistic young man, Kitazaki was the perfect example of why the Orphnochs had a bad reputation.
- Masahiko Minami is an amoral scientist who believes the Orphnochs deserve to be experimented on. Introduced stopping a police investigation, Minami recruits an innocent detective to spy on an Orphnoch, and orders his death when the man began symphatizing with Orphnochs. In his facility, Minami keeps an Orphnoch inside a glass box, calling him an "abomination". Minami believes that if humanity accepts the Orphnochs as equal beings, then humans will not be "pure" anymore, seeking to disable their shapeshifting abilities so they can die as monsters. Making a deal with Smart Brain to use Orphnochs as weapons, Minami captures Yuka and electrocutes her, ignoring complaints that the experiment could kill her, as he considers her a "worthless life". When she is saved by the Orphnoch he kept in a box, Minami sets up a squad of heavily armed officers to eliminate Yuka, Kiba and Takumi, indirectly causing her death. When his base is attacked by an enraged Kiba, Minami leaves his staff to die and escapes, but is later found and killed by him, spending his last moments laughing at his face and stating that the Orphnochs will never succeed. Despite his limited screentime, Minami proved himself to be far more malicious than many Orphnochs.
The "point" of the "heinousness needs to fit into canon" fanfic rule was to prevent awful, ridiculous examples coming through, and served as an extra deterrent for keeping Torture Porn and other garbage fics from being proposed.
Anyone ever notice that those kinds of proposals have lessened since the rule was put in place? Because I've kept track, and they have. If we have to sacrifice not allowing in stuff like Pony POV in exchange for keeping all those awful examples from kickstarting again, the choice is clear for me.
I mean, while we're at it, let's add Ulfric from that Frozen fanfic. Sure it's got Elsa X Anna incest, a brutal rape and torture scene, R-rated language, and damn near nothing to do with the original content, but boy howdy, it's got it's own plot and we wanna be FAIR, so let's let it right on in.
If these people want to make mass-murdering lunatics who try to commit genocide against people? Maybe they should, I dunno, make original content. THEN I'd be happy to put up these characters, not when they butcher source material and turn stuff into their own edgy playground.
We're trying to abolish a rule that has kept awful fanfic proposals out of the thread for years now simply because we don't want to seem "biased" or some such. I fought long and hard to get the rule that a fanfic cannot surpass the original work's heinous standard rule inputted to keep stuff like Ulfric and the like from being proposed, and if this rule is reversed and we open the floodgates for these kinds of things to be proposed again? I can and will be considering checking out of this thread for good.
That's not a threat and it's not me trying to cow anyone into submission. It's simply a fact.
edited 29th Mar '18 7:55:58 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I disagree. We'd still make it clear that those types of fanfics aren't welcome. It's not that much of a sacrifice. More an assumption, really.
I don't mean to question your reasoning, but you're basing that on if it happens. If anything, as look as there is a legitimate point to the fic that doesn't exploit dark subject matter but has reasoning behind the tonal shift, I'd say why not?
edited 29th Mar '18 8:01:17 AM by AustinDR

I just finished Assassination Classroom, and I really hate how they tried to make Reaper's dying moments so sympathetic. Does anybody else thing he would have qualified if not for that?