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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#113126: Mar 28th 2018 at 6:36:58 PM

Yea on Ephraim and Oshmaan and if Oshmaan got approved and some new C Ms in the same setting with Oshmaan, will the write-up of him and those potential C Ms be submitted to to Conan the Barbarian page? @Ligjtysnake

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#113127: Mar 28th 2018 at 6:38:08 PM

[tup] Oshmann, Ephraim and Ettienne - who is another CM we have based on a real person.

Isn't Versialles that show that generated mild controversy for being quite raunchy?

Ah, wait, it's French, so of course it did.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#113128: Mar 28th 2018 at 6:39:07 PM

Yeah, all Conan examples would go on the Conan page.

edited 28th Mar '18 6:39:19 PM by Lightysnake

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#113129: Mar 28th 2018 at 6:58:51 PM

[tup] Ephraim and Oshmaan.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#113131: Mar 28th 2018 at 7:58:12 PM

[tup]Ephraim and Oshmaan.

Why so serious?
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#113132: Mar 28th 2018 at 8:00:04 PM

The Conanverse is 100% canon to the Marvel Universe by the way, thanks to these comics.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#113134: Mar 28th 2018 at 8:17:48 PM

Yes to Ohsmaan.

@Hamburger Time: Not only are the Conan comics canon in the Marvel universe, but off the top of my head I know that at least one Conan villain also regularly tangles with Marvel heroes: Shuma Gorath, who nowadays is one of Doctor Strange's better known rogues.

edited 28th Mar '18 8:19:32 PM by FriedWarthog

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#113135: Mar 28th 2018 at 8:49:20 PM

'Yes' to our latest Conan and Lovecraft (Who can't seem to get brought up without being called a racist) baddies.

As for Makarov? No. Absolutely not, and I'm pretty damn shocked only 43 feels the same as I do. Makarov is a genocidal lunatic who tries to murder millions of ponies by dropping them out of the sky, and that's coupled with not only everything else he does, but also the fact that he's, you know, got a Russian name in a Ponyverse.

This is not conducive to the MLP setting, and it truly doesn't sound like Pony POV is THAT much of a setting change. So....could someone explain to me how Makarov possibly makes it past our rules regarding fanfics not having villains that would never exist in the original setting?

Cause maybe it's just me, but a Russian-named torturing mass-murdering psychopath isn't exactly something I would picture in the original setting. But maybe it's just me.

edited 28th Mar '18 8:58:27 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#113136: Mar 28th 2018 at 8:56:12 PM

[up] Honestly, you're absolutely right. I was trying to be generous, but there's no point in fooling myself. I'm gonna go ahead and switch to a [tdown] for Makarov. He sounds bad, but he really, really doesn't fit with the original setting.

edited 28th Mar '18 9:00:06 PM by JoeBlitz

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#113137: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:12:35 PM

Yeaaaa I think I have to say [tdown] on Makarov

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#113138: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:15:25 PM

Can we just... take a moment to reanalyze Pony POV as a whole? I know we cut one character way back who was a multiple rapist who wasn't bad enough for the setting. Is this really the sort of stuff we see fitting in the work?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#113140: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:19:47 PM

This is the kind of stuff that strikes me as a double standard and it's one I think we should stop ignoring.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#113141: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:20:20 PM

When it comes to fan fics and how much darker they can get than the original source material when said source material is intended for kids, I tend to less think about the thing that they're based on in particular and more on what could conceivably be in something intended for younger audiences at all.

Mass murder, for instance, isn't actually taboo in kid's entertainment, it's all about what you see and what is just implied. Mulan is a G-rated movie that has a villain who wages a conquest of China that leaves hundreds dead, and we see plenty of his own men die onscreen. So stuff like that can be in things that children can see, even if you'd probably never see them in say, MLP specifically. Therefore, there are crimes that can be in an MLP fanfic that wouldn't disqualify it even if you wouldn't see them in the show.

There are other crimes that might be on a smaller scale which you'd never see in a family movie, such as rape or punching a pregnant woman in the gut. These crimes would disqualify a fanfiction based on a family property in my mind unless the fic rebuilt the entire fictional world from the ground up.

I think the question we ask shouldn't be "Would this be in the original work?" and should instead be "Could this be in a work aimed at remotely the same age group?" And again, when it comes to crimes like mass murder, what's actually shown versus what's just talked about or done through a Gory Discretion Shot matters.

Going on this, I don't think that the Pony POV Series can qualify. From what I've heard, it has many things that would be considered taboo for anything aimed at young adults. This probably also goes for a number of other fanfic entries we have.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#113142: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:26:53 PM

[up] So, if Pony POV Series fails in either regard, sounds like we must cut the whole thing.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#113143: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:27:29 PM

If it means keeping a consistent standard, cut away.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#113144: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:38:28 PM

Thing is, as previously noted, I sorta feel like the people on this thread are the only ones anywhere under the impression that pony fanfiction writers are trying to aim at the show's primary demographic at all.

[tup]Ephraim and Oshmaan

edited 28th Mar '18 9:38:42 PM by nrjxll

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#113145: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:42:40 PM

[tup] Ephraim and Oshmaan. Two more Kamen Rider candidates, this time from Faiz. The Dragon Orphnoch, Kitazaki, and the malicious human Minami.

What is the setting? Smart Brain is a corporation founded by Orphnochs, creatures who believe they are the next step in human evolution. Smart Brain's purpose is to help their king by creating the Rider belts and converting more people into their cause. Not all Orphnochs are bad people, as some of them reject Smart Brain and decide to save humanity, these are called "Renegade Orphnoch". The belts are: Faiz, Kaixa and Delta, the hero Takumi obviously wears the first one. Smart Brain's elite squad is the Lucky Clover, a team of Orphnochs who like hang out in a bar called Bar Clover and are hired to do Smart Brain's most important tasks. Our first candidate is part of them, Kitazaki.

Who is Kitazaki? Kitazaki, the Dragon Orphnoch, is a young man with the ability to turn everything he touches into ash. As Lucky Clover's strongest Orphnoch, Kitazaki only serves Smart Brain if the mission they give to him is "fun", or in other words, "brutal". In the past, Kitazaki took part in a massacre that left several students dead, personally killing Mari, Takumi's close friend, she was later revived with the use of Orphnoch DNA. Kitazaki is introduced murdering three men, intentionally letting two of them touch him, and burning an entire forest just to find the third one. When he finds Takuma, another Lucky Clover member, he bullies him for liking poetry and puts his fist against Takuma's cheek, which hurts him; he later does this to another Orphnoch working for Lucky Clover, Sawada. Obtaining the Delta belt, Kazaki uses it to have his fun, and stomps on Takuma's back when he tries to steal it from him. In the bar, Kitazaki decides to play a "game" with the Lucky Clover, whoever kills Yuji Kiba, a renegade Orphnoch, gets to slap another member in the arm, knowing very well that if he did this, the other person would be left without an arm. When Takuma tells Kitazaki that he could abandon this stupid game and that the best thing to do is to take their mission seriously, Kitazaki agrees... but only if they shake hands. Sawada, who at this point is not one of them anymore, is informed that Takumi wants to fight Kitazaki and the Lucky Clover, and takes his place in the challenge, Kitazaki doesn't care and decides to kill Sawada anyway, just because he was in a bad mood. To prove that he is the best Orphnoch alive, Kitazaki creates a new "game", whoever kills the Arch-Orphnoch (who is in the body of a little kid) becomes the new king, despite having the information that this would result in the death of all Orphnoch, this alone gets the Lucky Clover pissed and they betray him, leaving Kitazaki to be finished off by the king.

Mitigating Factors? None at all, Kitazaki is the most cruel, and heartless Orphnoch to appear in the series.

Now, Minami.

Who is Minami? Masahiko Minami is a mysterious scientist fascinated by the Orphnoch. Minami is introduced stopping a police investigation into the mass murder of several asshole victims committed by Yuka Osada, a good-hearted, but troubled Orphnoch. In his facility, Minami keeps a defenseless renegade Orphnoch in a glass box, and tells his employees to not worry about him, as Orphnochs are "abominations", experimenting on him almost daily. In his lab, Minami reveals his twisted mindset to the detective working with him, Sawamura, if humanity accepts the Orphnochs as equals, then humans will not be "pure" anymore, that's why he wants to disable the Orphnochs' ability to shapeshift into human form, even if they are renegade, so they can die as the monsters that they are. Minami makes a deal with Smart Brain to use an Orphnoch as his personal weapon. Minami orders his agents to kill Sawamura for having considered his experiments illegal and sympathizing with the Orphnochs, calling him an "hypocrite", despite his own involvement with Smart Brain. Minami captures Yuka, and convinces her to take part in his experiment, telling Yuka that he will cure her. In the experiment, Minami straps Yuka to a table and electrocutes her, continuing even after his scientists informed him that the experiment could kill her, telling them that Yuka is a "worthless life". Minami meets with Takumi, and tries to manipulate him into bringing Yuka and Kiba to him, this is obviously a trap, as Minami sets up a team of heavily armed officers to kill the trio, which indirectly culminates with Yuka's tragic death. When Kiba finally decides to get revenge on Minami, he leaves his entire staff to die and escapes like the coward he is. Minami is found and killed by Kiba, spending his last moments laughing at Kiba and telling him that the Orphnoch will never succeed

Mitigating Factors? If Kitazaki is the worst Orphnoch, then Minami is definately the worst human. This guy seemed to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist at first, but after we discover that he is working with Smart Brain and had ordered an innocent human's death, we realize that this is not the case.

Conclusion? [tup] to both.

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Sep 21st 2019 at 6:39:20 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#113146: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:43:31 PM

Can't really commit on the POV examples. If anything, I'd at the very least like to have bobg explain it more before making a definitive decision.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#113147: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:44:14 PM

I don’t think that anyone is under that impression here, it’s a matter of what we want to take as legitimate works.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#113148: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:45:50 PM

If anything, on whether or not it's legitimate, I can't really give a decision now. I honestly don't see it as a double standard, but that's solely my opinion.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#113149: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:47:05 PM

My main issue is that seems to be how we treat literally every other series in terms of fanfics and their qualifiers and we've instantly turned downed villains who don't mesh well with other settings, so why should MLP be any different?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#113150: Mar 28th 2018 at 9:48:19 PM

It'd come down to whether the fanfic is a complete overhaul of the setting, I would say. Much like with Brawl or Breakfast of the Gods.

edited 28th Mar '18 9:48:41 PM by AustinDR


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