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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

hegelvonaxel Since: Feb, 2018
#113101: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:11:58 PM

I only mentioned Walder before, when i tried to give his entry a note why Book!Walder doesn't count.

When was the last time, that i asked about GOT heinous standard?

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#113102: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:14:30 PM

I join to the Hegel in being curious about Walder, Lord Frey dont come as more heinous than his book counterpart who is NOT a CM. And I dont think that GOT have a lesser heinous standard than ASOIAF.

I am not against him per se, but I just want to know.

edited 28th Mar '18 4:14:58 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
hegelvonaxel Since: Feb, 2018
#113103: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:20:41 PM

@Kazuya Show!Walder isn't more heinous than Book!Walder, but he is surounded by less heinous villains.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#113104: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:24:10 PM

BTW, question about the two-week rule: For shows like, say, Pokemon, do we go by the English dub, of the subbed ep?

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#113105: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:24:14 PM

[up] I guess that I am mixing book and show and my mind when I calculate the heinous standard.

Watch me destroying my country
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#113106: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:29:47 PM

Doesn't book!Frey have a few minor redeeming qualities anyways?

Anyways, if it comes to a point where we need to reevaluate the standard of the series and cut Walder, we can do it then. Until then? No need for hypotheticals.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#113107: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:30:01 PM

Hegel, I'm going to have to agree with Lighty on this one. Many, many times you've randomly brought up ASOIAF or GOT and sidetracked the thread. When I asked you why you said you didn't understand why people considered Frollo to be a complex character and thought Joffery was more complex without being prompted, you even admitted to me there was no relevance to your statement beyond giving your opinion. These questions/observations really don't add anything to the thread and to be frank it's getting frustrating.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#113108: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:35:19 PM

Suffice to say: if we get those spinoffs, if they're what you hypothesize they are, if those characters are portrayed as such then, then we will discuss the placement of previously confirmed keepers when we reevaluate the standards.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#113109: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:36:50 PM

Is anyone going to comment on my David King write-up here?

Why so serious?
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#113110: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:38:13 PM

Looks good to me, Clown-Face. Rosewood, thoughts?

hegelvonaxel Since: Feb, 2018
#113111: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:38:33 PM

I will ask again.

When was the last time, that i brought ASOIAF?

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#113112: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:41:22 PM

Speaking of me craving for searching female C Ms in medias such as anime,videogames or webcomics....... @ACW Can I take a jab on Hildyr's write-up. I know she's been E Pd and got some decent amount of [tup] votes but has no proper write-up. I might try at my best to do it and glad that one of my friends made an LP on Cinderella Phenomenon. (Even though he didn't saw her as one but I digress). And maybe I could watch Wizard 101 gameplay to check if Morganthe was truly as bad as people make it to be and would love to check other video games,animes or webcomics so that I could find more female C Ms. Hopefully I try at my best to do it....

So tl;dr I'm still looking for more female C Ms and I think I'm cool if you guys can add Hildyr on my to-do list for upcoming writeups.

@Clown-Face David King's write-up looks good to me [tup]

edited 28th Mar '18 4:44:13 PM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#113114: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:47:16 PM

Oh! and throwing in a yea for Father Etienne

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#113115: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:49:43 PM

Elfen: Go for it.

David King's rewrite looks good to me. Rosewood?

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#113116: Mar 28th 2018 at 4:51:33 PM

[up] Alright.... Add me on the list of pending CM write-ups given that I would love to see the LP first but I think I'm cool if I saw the original EP

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#113119: Mar 28th 2018 at 5:03:32 PM

[up] Alright..... Let me do it when I go home from college.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ClownPrince47 Since: Sep, 2016
#113121: Mar 28th 2018 at 5:59:02 PM

  • SCP – Containment Breach: SCP-106, The Old Man, is just as monstrous as his canon counterpart. Taking advantage of the titular containment breach, 106 goes on a killing spree, killing a janitor, a doctor, and possibly Dr. L and Dr. Maynard. When he encounters the D-Class Personal, he relentlessly pursues him, at one point throwing the mutilated corpse of the aforementioned doctor at him to scare him. If captured by 106, the prisoner is brought to his Pocket Dimension, where they'll be hunted by 106, or almost bleed to death. He also leaves creepy taunts written on the ground in this Pocket Dimension, along with coffins filled with his still living victims. In order to contain 106, the player character needs to break the femur of another D-Class prisoner. This will result in 106 being attracted by his screams of pain, and take the man to his Pocket Dimension, allowing him to be contained.

Anicomicgeek Burning MireGoji from Japan (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Burning MireGoji
#113122: Mar 28th 2018 at 6:04:54 PM

How many votes does it take for approval? As I think I jumped the gun a bit earlier.^^;

Troper Wall * DeviantArt
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#113123: Mar 28th 2018 at 6:16:17 PM

Another post for tonight... so, after Ambar's post on Heinrich, me and Lighty got to talking about if we'd missed anyone else from the classic Mythos sans Nyarly and Curwen. Well, I think I found one.

What's the setting?

The Thing on the Doorstep is one of H.P. Lovecraft's later stories, written in 1933... not quite as well-regarded as many of his earlier ones (but nowhere near as racist!), Doorstep recounts the experiences of a man named Daniel Upton and his friend Edward Pickman Derby, a quiet, astute young man who one day becomes bewitched by a woman named Asenath Waite. Asenath is a hypnotist who comes to the Miskatonic University, and, seemingly falling in love with the otherwise shy, reserved Derby, starts to very gradually change him. Asenath? Isn't who she seems. Isn't who he seems.

Who is Ephraim Waite? What has he done?

A little bit of backstory first... Ephraim? Was Asenath's father. A man with a wolfish, saturine face and an iron-grey beard who visited the Miskatonic library a few times for reasons of his own, Dan recalls that Ephraim supposedly died utterly insane. Rumored to be a powerful magician capable of brewing and manipulating storms, Ephraim's story is actually far, far worse. Ephraim? Was a dark sorcerer affiliated with various perverse, eldritch covens under the name of "Kamog" who consulted with the Necronomicon for the purpose of finding a way to become immortal. Native to good old Innsmouth, Ephraim bred with a Deep One and gave birth to an Asenath. Loathing that his intended host was female and a half-breed, Ephraim sought a male body, one of great intellect but weak will, and used Asenath as a means to this... bodyjacking his own daughter and leaving her in his own ex-body, which he then poisoned and locked away to leave his own daughter to die in horrible agony and insanity within his ex-body.

So, Asenath, as an increasingly suspicious Derby finds out through various subtle slips in the guise? Has been Ephraim the whole time. Over a course of years, Ephraim, in Asenath's body, gradually weakens Derby and drives him further and further into the thresholds of insanity, possessing his body at random and increasingly frequent intervals for the purpose of his dark rites. Ephraim even suddenly possesses Derby when he tries to seek Dan's help and calmly reassuring Dan that nothing is wrong. Eventually, things come to a point where Derby finally seems to be sane again... only for the horrible truth to be revealed: Derby killed Asenath's body in a desperate bid to kill Ephraim, but Ephraim's half-detached, still-living spirit managed to possess and bodyjack Derby's body anyways — sending Derby's soul into Asenath's corpse and dooming him to a horrific undeath while Asenath's body rots and Derby is aware of everything as it does.

Through a massive magnitude of strength and willpower, Derby manages to drive Asenath's dead body to Dan's house where he gives him a written note before expiring and collapsing into liquid rot on Dan's doorstep, urging Dan to take care of Ephraim. Ephraim's goal, as he struts free in Derby's young, capable body, is to gain immortality by surfing from body to body forevermore, damning countless more innocents to insanity and death one after another as he wreaks untold havoc and horror to all humanity with his black magic. With Dan's instructions, Dan hopefully ends the crisis by bursting into the sanitarium where Ephraim in Derby's body is about to be checked out and riddling him full of bullets — and imploring his body to be cremated to kill Ephraim once and for all. The story ends ambiguously as Dan rests, confident that his will is strong enough to keep Ephraim's spirit at bay — but whether or not Ephraim is dead is never truly revealed.

Any mitigating factors?

Well, for Ephraim himself, easy no. Ephraim is another completely human villain in the Mythos who commits a series of horrid atrocities for nothing more than his own personal benefit, and nothing implies his agency is being messed with in any way. No excuse or redeeming factors and he has plenty of characterization for a short story.

The heinous standard among the human villains in the classic Mythos (so, those written by Lovecraft and his contemporaries while Lovecraft was still alive — not any of the neo-Lovecraftian stuff by people like Ramsay Campbell, Lin Carter, or Clark Ashton Smith that posthumously expanded the Mythos) is a bit trickier, but... I'm inclined to say Ephraim still passes. Curwen is easily the nastiest of the human villains and he's already listed, and there's several others like the Cthulhian cults or the Whateleys who want to bring the Great Old Ones back to Earth and desecrate all humanity etc. etc., but Ephraim? Is unique in that with a very narrow range of targets and a fairly modest goal (for a Lovecraftian cultist) in that his deeds are still horrible for a human villain with some uniquely bad personal stuff to make him stand out... using your own daughter as a body suit while condemning her to a slow death is freaking awful, and Ephraim's admittedly low victim count is offset by the fact the story makes it clear that he can and will possess and murder countless, countless more innocents to live forever, with his dark magic potentially putting the "peace and comfort" of the world at large in horrific danger.

So, at his level, and with no especially strong ties to any world-ending eldritch deities whatsoever? I'd say Ephraim passes.

Conclusion?

Honestly? I'd say keep, as the second from me from the Mythos and the very first from me of Lovecraft's original stories. And it's about time, too.

Thoughts?

edited 28th Mar '18 6:18:28 PM by Scraggle

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#113124: Mar 28th 2018 at 6:18:01 PM

[up][up]A 'clear consensus' generally, or at least 3-5 yea votes above nays

Yea to waites and new effortpost...

What's the Work?

Savage Sword of Conan was a very long Marvel series that adapted Robert E. Howard's famous Conan stories along with many of the Conan works done by other writers and original ones. This will cover one of the original stories, Haunter of the Oasis by Roy Thomas...now, in the Conan 'verse, the nation of Hyrkania is full of hill-dwelling nomadic tribes. Issue is Hyrkania has been encroached above by the massive Turanian empire, led by King Yezdigerd, who forges a gigantic empire of his own. ...in the outpost Ashraf, a Hyrkanian officer decides to get some ideas...enter Oshmaan, the Executioner.

Who is Oshmaan and what's he do?

Oshmaan rallies his Hyrkanian soldiers and massacres the Turanian garrison, declaring to the commander Mahal that they're sick and tired of fighting for Turan, and will return to the hills, burning the Griffon flag of Turan and erecting a barrier of a white wolf as his sigil, vowing to create a new Hyrkanian empire. Mahal is then summarily beheaded by Oshmaan himself. Leading the Hyrkanians? Oshamaan leads them on a vicious rampage to destroy all in their path, ending in the small city of Djebal. In an unbelievably brutal move, Oshmaan has Djebal put to the sword and torch. Old women, men of all ages, and children, including infants? Massacred. The young and attractive women are taken to serve as breeding stock for the new empire. Mahal's wife Alondra of Corinthia is in the city when Oshmaan arrives, Oshmaan murdering her guard and taking her as 'first of his harem,' naming himself 'The Executioner' to mock Alondra after she insults him with the title.

Conan along the way has been a chieftain of of a tribe of raiders and warriors when one of his former men was killed returning to Djebal. Finding him dying, his friend names Oshmaan responsible and Conan, enraged by Oshmaan's actions arrives to deal justice. Knowing he can't beat the Hyrkanians himself, Conan sees Oshmaan about to lash and rape Alondra, and rescues her but fails to kill Oshmaan. Escaping with Alondra and wandering for a bit (including through an oasis with a monster at the bottom hence the story's title, but that's neither here nor there), they enlist the aid of another tribe who were allies of Djebal. In the ensuing fight, Oshmaan attempts to enrage them into a rash move by drawing out the remaining captive women and having them massacred until the fighters are too angry to hold back.

Conan manages to rally the warriors to victory and defeat Oshmaan's men, only for Oshmaan to attempt to cowardly flee until he spots Alondra and attempts to hunt her down and murder her, blaming her for everything when Conan arrives. Oshmaan boasts he'll simply kill Conan and give his head to Yezdigerd to buy his way back into Turan's service, only for Conan to outfight him and finish by beheading the Executioner.

Mitigating Qualities?

Now, at first, Ohsmaan claims they're tired of fighting their 'Hyrkanian brothers' for Turan. Thing is? He's interested in power and forging an empire himself, constantly talking about this. Furthermore, when things go south? He happily decides to abandon his men to their fate and for all his high and mighty talk of suffering under Turan's yoke, he decides to bribe his way back into Turan's service via Conan's life (Yezdigerd and Conan are bitter enemies from their 20s until Conan ends up killing him in a duel between kings decades later). All Oshmaan cares about is power.

Heinouness?

Okay, Marvel's Conan? Ran for like....well over 200 issues, plus several hundred issues of Savage Sword, PLUS a 55 issue King Conan series with a shared 'verse of Kull stories, Solomon Kane, Bran Mak Morn, etc....so there's probably a lot of unplumbed depths here for CM fodder, but Oshmaan? Now, he's not a demon, a monster, a sorcerer, a conqueror or much of anything but a two-bit thug with a small army trying to start an empire and he gets up to...surprisingly nasty amounts of evil for his really low tier in the world. (and in case anyone's wondering, Yezdigerd has, as I recall, clear redeeming qualities and isn't wantonly sadistic)...the massacre of Djebal is pretty awful in of itself, taking its women for breeding stock, having them massacred as well, attempting to rape and kill Alondra...I think he passes.

Conclusion?

A keeper. Don't be surprised if there's a lot of Conan ones from the old 80s Marvel stuff.

edited 28th Mar '18 6:18:56 PM by Lightysnake

rosewood47 from A Padded Cell (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#113125: Mar 28th 2018 at 6:26:00 PM

I did some slight rewording and added some links, but overall yeah I like it:

edited 28th Mar '18 6:26:44 PM by rosewood47


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