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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#112601: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:11:41 PM

[up] Oh yes I 'member the effort post I gave for Chicken Wing.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#112602: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:25:08 PM

I am not unopposed to a clean up for the MLP fan stuff, but it will be hard since I doubt any of us would like to chance Sturgeon's Law to such an extent.

edited 22nd Mar '18 7:25:19 PM by PolarPhantom

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#112603: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:28:41 PM

I've advocated for that before, on the basis that a quick glance at the page will tell you the bulk of the crimes the characters commit would never happen in a million years in an actual MLP work. I made the point that unless the work firmly tries to establish its own setting and recreates the universe, as opposed to following the canon, they should be cut but someone, don't remember who, was pretty opposed and nothing really came of it.

[down] 1000% down for that.

edited 22nd Mar '18 7:31:50 PM by 43110

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#112604: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:30:10 PM

As I've said before, I think that we should cut anything on the page that wasn't properly effort-posted. If someone thinks that something can stay, they can effort-post it themselves.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#112606: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:33:54 PM

MLP has always been an iffy subject period, both on and off the Internet. Anyway, more RoboCop shiz! This is my final one; I believe bobg still has one or two more candidates though.

So I decided to save the best for last. Here we go. This time I'll be covering the 2014 continuity comic, published by Boom! Studios.

Who Is He?

John Killian is a charismatic criminal recently released from prison who wants to reign chaos in Old Detroit.

What Has He Done?

So, I'll get the backstory out the way first. Twenty-five years ago, Killian was an arms dealer who sold weapons to anyone looking to buy, alongside his associate Nash. However, just before a major deal, he was arrested by the police (and I'll explain how this happened later). Anyway...

In the present, Killian and his partner Wyatt spy on Alex Murphy from afar as he easily takes control of a shootout between the police and arms dealers. Having seen RoboCop in action, Killian decides to use him to his advantage. After seeing the shootout, Killian becomes the citizen liason for the city council, and his first act is to activate the "Get the Guns" initiative, which allows the police to confiscate all guns that aren't registered. Immediately afterwards, Killian starts a riot against the police, stating that OCP is nullifying everyone's ability to defend themselves. To further prove his point, Killian murders liquor store owner Walter Hutch, claiming that "it's a shame he wasn't able to protect himself."

Later, Killian and Nash have gathered up the weapons OCP have confiscated and plan on selling them across the country, to other countries, and even back into Old Detroit. As Nash's gang get ready, Killian starts another riot, using Hutch's death to rile up the angry citizens. After Nash and his buddies are killed by Murphy Lewis, Killian tries to spin the situation to his advantage, which results in Lewis saying that OCP plans on changing the gun laws. The riots end shortly afterwards. Turns out that the riots were just a distraction so Killian could steal all of OCP's weapons, including a few ED-209s. Using the new weapons, Wyatt starts robbing banks, not caring about the innocents who are murdered in the process. While this is happening, Killian has his truck drivers who were hired to transport the gun executed in prison. Sometime after, he breaks into the OCP tower and meets with the Old Man, where he blackmails him into assisting him in making Detroit into a warzone, or else he'll expose the secret of how Old Man hired Killian to sell guns illegally to help him fund his company.

Meanwhile, Wyatt and his gang attack Murphy with the ED-2000X (bigger, better, more shootier, etc.) and film him getting pulverized. Using the video footage, Killian plans on selling ED-2000Xs on the Black Market—which undercover officer Mason overhears. Wyatt and Killian catch Mason taking incriminating photos of his weaponry, and brutally torture him to death off-screen. Wyatt is later apprehended by the police and exposes Killian's warehouse full of weapons. Seeing no other option, Killian decides to confess his crimes at a press conference—just as a police force breaks into the warehouse and is ambushed. Lots of officers and cirminals alike are killed. During the press conference, Lewis exposes Killian, showing the public video footage of him murdering Hutch. Thinking quickly, Killian shouts that the footage had been fabricated and he's being framed by OCP. Nevertheless, Murphy apprehends him before he can flee.

...And then he escapes from a police cruiser, killing two officers along the way. After some time, Killian shows up on live television to get back at OCP; he gloats that OCP has been spying on all of Detroit using surveillance cameras (which is true, hence how Lewis found out Killian killed Hutch). This results in a city-wide riot. Again. As Murphy and OCP handle the rioting, Killian heads into Mayor Gibson's office at City Hall and tells him his backstory (see the FE part below) before demanding control codes. Then he murders the mayor, shortly before starting another riot. With the control codes in possession, Killian heads to the city's prison complex and releases all the inmates after killing the warden. The riots in the city escalate, with Killian leading them now against all of the police officers. He attempts to murder Officer Lewis, but her partner Jansen takes the bullet for her. While Murphy and the others handle the convicts, Killian heads straight for the Old Man in his tower.

Killian, Old Man, and Murphy have a three-way stand-off. Murphy shoots off Killian's fingers so he'll drop his gun, as he wants to take him in alive. Killian starts ranting, claiming that RoboCop is just another pawn for the Old Man, and desperately tries to force Murphy to kill the Old Man. Murphy punches him in the jaw and slaps the cuffs on him, only for the Old Man to activate a kill switch in Murphy that renders him inoperable. With nothing to stop him, the Old Man grabs Murphy's gun and shoots Killian, and his body plunges out the skyscraper's window.

Freudian Excuse?

So it turns out that John Killian is really Killian Highland, the Old Man's younger brother. Killian and Old Man's father was abusive, namely to Killian. It reached a point where Killian murdered their father, and he was later sent to an orphanage—not that Killian minded at all, since their father was dead. When Killian and the Old Man were reunited, they worked together selling arms and making money. Eventually, the Old Man had Killian arrested—both because Killian got sloppy and the Old Man was getting paranoid. Needless to say, Killian's a bit sour about that, and longed to ruin Old Man's reputation by tearing Old Detroit apart. There's even a part in the comic where Killian blames the Old Man, stating "I'm what you made me" and that he wants to save Old Detroit.

First off, no. Killian does not want to save Old Detroit. He just wants to get revenge on his brother, even if it means destroying his "legacy," which is in fact Old Detroit itself.

Secondly, everything about his backstory with him as a child and growing up in an orphanage has nothing to do with his motivations. He only mentions his abusive father once just before he killed the mayor. He doesn't seem to mind or really care that he had a rough childhood, and it didn't really shape him into being the man he turned into.

So that just leaves his issues with the Old Man. Now yes, the Old Man is largely responsible for contributing to Killian's actions in the story. But is not directly or indirectly ordering Killian to commit all these crimes. More importantly, when Killian and the Old Man finally reunited as young adults? They worked together equally. They embraced their "darkness" together; the Old Man did not force Killian to do anything he didn't wanna do. Killian is just upset that the Old Man got him sent to prison while he got away scot-free, and he wants revenge. But nothing in the comic indicates that the Old Man threatened or even forced Killian to become an arms dealer unwillingly.

Mitigating Factors?

None. His relationship between Wyatt and Nash is purely pragmatic. When Nash dies, Killian shrugs off his death without batting an eye since he ratted him out in order to get out of prison early. And when Wyatt is killed by Murphy, Killian isn't even slightly upset when Murphy hauls his corpse in front of him.

There are two "Bitches leave!" moments in the comic, but that's about it. And, similar with Clarence, I don't see how it's really mitigating.

Heinous Standard Issues?

Again, heinous standard for the series is absurd. That being said, in terms of this comic? Killian sets it. Not a single other character does anything on the same scale as this man. He's responsible for organizing several riots, lured several police officers into a trap that got many of them killed, personally tortured one officer to death, got many civilians killed, murdered the mayor, released all the inmates from prison that worsened his riots and nearly got several officers killed, etc. To top that all off, he initially intended on selling various arms, including the highly destructive ED-2000Xs around the world, and managed to almost turn Old Detroit into a warzone.

Even for this series, that's incredibly vile—especially considering that Killian does not have the same level of resources like Edwina.

Final Verdict?

I'll let you guys decide. For me personally, keeper. Yes, his FE is understandable, and he had a bad childhood. But trying to destroy an entire city, let alone attempting to sell thousands of illegal arms across the country just because he got screwed over in the past, is a bit much.

On a side note? I highly recommend the comic. This continuity didn't have just the best villain on my end. It had a really interesting subplot involving Lewis and Murphy; it had a gorgeous art style; it captured the tone of the series perfectly without getting too gory or over-the-top; it even had a great ending, whereas most of the comics I read had a Bittersweet Ending or were blatantly Left Hanging.

edited 22nd Mar '18 7:37:04 PM by Tyk5919

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#112607: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:45:11 PM

I'll give a slight yea on Killian. I forgot, does Old Man count from there?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#112608: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:51:28 PM

[tup] to Killian

Wow thats a lot of Robocop baddies counting. I wonder how many there are (probably enough to get its own page.)

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#112609: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:55:08 PM

[up][up] No. Although he tried to cover up his own mess, he's not directly responsible for anything Killian does throughout the comic, unlike Dick Jones.

[up] We'll discuss that after bobg's last effortpost(s). Not now.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#112610: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:57:41 PM

Onto a topic I much prefer to anything about MLP, yes to Killian, nothing about his FE holds up and he sounds ruthless. Also, can we leave aside discussion about a page at least until bob and Tyk finish putting up their candidates, as per Tyk's own request?

[up][nja]

edited 22nd Mar '18 7:58:01 PM by 43110

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#112613: Mar 22nd 2018 at 8:23:17 PM

[tup] Killian.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#112614: Mar 22nd 2018 at 8:24:57 PM

Handy 'Yes' to lemon and Killian. NEW PAGE WHEN, THO????

Alright, I'm gonna be hitting the sack soon, so I'm gonna go ahead and do this to make sure nothing crops up while I'm sleeping....time to discuss the show that is heralded as a triumph for modern feminism while ironically being at its best when a mind-controlling rapist is running around, Jessica Jones.

So, short answer? No one counts. Between the jacked up heinous standard and every villain having some form of redeeming feature, it's a dud for contenders.

Now, longer answer?

  • Alisa Jones is Jessica's mother who, due to suffering extensive brain damage and undergoing various experiments, is prone to rage-induced blackouts where she murders numerous people—ranging from genuine asshats to potential jerks endangering her daughter-and ultimately threatens every aspect of Jessica's life. However, Alisa has GENUINE mental problems, and she herself isn't really violent—it's the product of all the abuse her mind underwent following a car crash. Coupled with an honest love for Jessica and the fact that she TRIES to get herself killed and/or locked up for good in the end to stop her psychosis, and she is an easy non-qualifier.

  • Dr. Karl Malus, the man who experimented on Alisa and Jessica, is really just a hippy weirdo who performs experiments For Science!, but who ultimately has the best of intentions and really cares for Alisa.

  • The closest candidate we get, Dale Holiday, is a douchebag prison guard who tortures Alisa with electroshock bracelets and is revealed to be a serial killer of his own prisoners. The fact that he's only as evil as he is for plot convenience notwithstanding, guy's nasty, but he only has a confirmed kill count of about five, which, in the MCU and coming off the tail of Kilgrave himself? Falls completely short in heinousness, and he also shows a seeming respect and care for his parents and grandparents, so yeah, non-Keep.

  • Finally, the character who is arguably the most hateable this season, Trish Walker, Jessica's kind sister from Season 1. This season, Trish succumbs to a desire to be a "hero" and to this end, begins drugging herself with strength enhancers. Using these, she assaults people who even MIGHT have committed a crime while smugly asking for thanks for it, manipulates her friends, assaults and kidnaps one of them, forces Malus to give her permanent powers under threat of murdering him, and, even after recovering from her drug high, shoots Alisa in the head while she is having a heart-to-heart with Jess, splattering the woman's brains all over her horrified daughter. Trish then demands Jess understand and practically thank her for this, claiming it was the only way to "save" her, and ends her appearances by realizing she's gained actual superpowers...sort-of. Despite slipping into disgusting egomania, willingly subjecting herself to mind-altering drugs, and becoming The Scrappy of the season for many, Trish is deep down a seriously disturbed person who grew up a TV star while being abused by her mother, and went through many things child stars do (Drug addiction, being molested, etc.) By the present, Trish is insanely jealous of Jessica's power and desires to be a hero not only to help people, but also to satisfy her damaged mentality that feels like she NEEDS attention and to be loved to be complete.

  • Oh, and Kilgrave? Does return....as a mental manifestation in Jessica's mind, which is the single best thing about the entire season. So yes, he still qualifies, and yes, he's still as entertaining as last season.

Overall? No one counts for the trope this season because there's no real villain. Nearly everyone in the show, Jessica herself included, for better or worse, is portrayed as a prick in their own special way, and so all the antagonists are moreso portrayed as normal people making increasingly terrible decisions due to their own broken psyches. Whether this is a plus is up for debate, but it assuredly stomps on any chances of contenders.

edited 22nd Mar '18 8:28:01 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
speyeker Since: Jan, 2001
#112616: Mar 22nd 2018 at 8:56:33 PM

Agree with JJ season 2. I thought Dale Holiday might be a contender, but the fact that most of his crimes are Offstage Villainy negates his qualifications. He's probably the only truly evil character this season, criminals notwithstanding.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#112617: Mar 22nd 2018 at 9:07:57 PM

Yeah JJ doesn't have any qualifiers in its 2nd season, and while Trish most certainly became The Scrappy for many, and Dale is most certainly a Hate Sink, none of them do enough Onscreen damage to qualify as a CM.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:08:12 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#112618: Mar 22nd 2018 at 9:08:24 PM

I've always had a bit of a particular interest in the whole pony fanfiction debate, less because I care (or even know anything about, really) the subject matter itself than because it relates to broader principles I think are important to the site. From that perspective, I have to say that what Camberf said sounds totally reasonable, with two caveats: first, if people do make effortposts, they need to actually be treated with good faith rather than automatic eye-rolling (note that it's possible to eye-roll while simultaneously seriously considering a candidate). And second, I think at least a couple of those entries did have formal discussion - I've never liked the idea of re-litigating an example again and again until people get the result they want, and that seems like a risk. Given how much a drama magnet the page is I can't imagine there's any current entries that have just been up since before this thread with no one questioning them.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:09:13 PM by nrjxll

sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#112619: Mar 22nd 2018 at 11:22:02 PM

Killian from Robocop sounds like a [tup]. As for Jessica Jones, I concur with Ravok in that no one from S2 counts.

Speaking of Jessica Jones, I finished watching another Netflix original AICO Incarnation just as it hit its two-week grace period expiration date, and I can confirm that no one qualifies from the series. The Big Bad Dr. Kiyosuke Isazu genuinely loves his comatose daughter and, while he gets drunk with power in the final episode, his actions overall were to help her get out of her coma. It's a long story, but the other characters that started antagonistic either were Well-Intentioned Anti Villains who turned face (like Nanbara) or lack moral agency (the Matter). Overall, I think it's a slow burn but it's a solid series that explores the What Measure Is a Non-Human? trope quite well. But the show has no antagonist who's worth bringing up as a CM candidate.

edited 22nd Mar '18 11:24:47 PM by sanfranman91

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#112620: Mar 22nd 2018 at 11:40:37 PM

[tup]Lemon (Thats sour) and killian( whoose FE barely covers Half the shit he gets up to

As far as MLP goes. Didn't Scraggle bring up cutting The Immortal Game entries awhile bakc but nothing came of it. Let's start with wiping out any examples that haven't been formerly EP'd and go from there.

edited 23rd Mar '18 12:19:31 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#112621: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:24:54 AM

Yeah, The Immortal Game at the least has its trope page proudly declare it an unironic dark fic with villains I don't think were properly discussed. Any others we know that weren't effortposted?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#112624: Mar 23rd 2018 at 3:31:16 AM

I got something from a movie called Killpoint, a 1984 action movie starring Cameron Mitchell and Richard Roundtree. Having heard of this movie in Red Letter Media's Best of the Worst, I decided to give it a watch and I think I may have found a candidate in a character named Joe Marks.

Who is he?

Joe Marks is the main villain of the movie and the leader of a gang in California that specializes in distributing weapons to lower level thugs.

What has he done?

Since he's a Non-Action Big Bad, half of his crimes are pulled off by Nighthawk, his right-hand man. Marks orchestrated the theft of the National Guard's armory, resulting in the death of one of the managers and the acquirement of a large cache of military weapons. To make sure there's no competition in the streets, he orders Nighthawk and his men to murder a couple rival gang leaders and and to leave no witnesses alive, not even women and children. This leaves a body count of at least 30 kills. (I forgot the exact count. I'd have to watch the movie again.) Any hitmen who do leave witnesses alive are to be murdered by Nighthawk. One unlucky guy gets this fate when he kills a snitch in a the bathroom of a bar and leaves the body there for patrons to see.

As for Marks himself, he's a pretty unpleasant man. He's very misogynistic and racist, casually throwing slurs at the hero, James Long, and telling stories about how he abused his ex-wife for simply crying. He also doesn't really care for the welfare of his henchmen, which is exemplified when Nighthawk gets shot in front of him and is more worried that he will stain the carpet and tells him to just wash the wound off. When a girl named Candy refuses to strip for him, Marks slaps her around, strips her himself, puts out a cigarette on her left breast, and orders Nighthawk to strangle her and drop her body in a lake. Later, he strangles a waitress (probably to death, it's not very clear) for talking too much and not keeping her baby quiet.

One of his later monologues has him contemplating killing Nighthawk as he doesn't trust him.

Any mitigating factors?

Throughout the movie, Marks has a dog named Sparky that he seems to care about, but he treats it in a weird way like making it smoke cigarettes. It's also implied that he killed the dog or at least let the dog die with his odd treatment of it. While he does say that he misses the dog in his monologue and wants to bury it, at no point does he say that it's his fault for letting the dog die. He was also planning to buy the dog's siblings because they may look just like Sparky. Probably a big mitigating factor for someone who wanted to the kill the dog in case if it messed up his house.

Final Verdict

I'm iffy on this. While he is a ruthless gang leader who treats women like crap, how he feels about his dog is kind of giving me second thoughts. I'll let you guys decide.

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#112625: Mar 23rd 2018 at 4:46:40 AM

I remember The Immortal Game. A really dark story with a type of villain that could never appear in the show. Still the same could be said about villain from Recall the Time of No Return. Afterall, it’s still a children cartoon and Never Say "Die" is in full force. So the big question is: How dark can a My Little Pony fanfic become, until we say it’s too dark? Gore Fics and Torture Porn are a no go, but what about stories like Fallout: Equestria? A great story but there’s dead, murder, sex and drug abuse. Where do we draw the line? Or do we continue to make case-by-case decisions?

And to avoid talking only about MLP, I’ll also give Joe Marks a weak [tup]. Although I’m unsure about the dog. Sounds like he may have genuinely cared for it.


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