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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#112576: Mar 22nd 2018 at 1:44:28 PM

[up] Apart from a baby whose death was accidental.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#112577: Mar 22nd 2018 at 1:46:31 PM

Alright, I made it "he throws one of the girls—only four years old—from a tall bridge."

What about that Nazi lady?

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#112578: Mar 22nd 2018 at 1:48:03 PM

I'd keep her too. She's the worst racist on the show and is mind-numbingly terrifying. She doesn't love her son either as when they pass each other at the end while they're being arrested she just sneers at him, disgusted that he got caught.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#112579: Mar 22nd 2018 at 2:38:16 PM

Hey for a page image for Csi-verse. How about Mulvaney throwing his daughter off a bridge

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/images_1_64.jpeg
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/images_2_21.jpeg

some caption text

edited 22nd Mar '18 2:38:45 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#112580: Mar 22nd 2018 at 3:12:48 PM

So, have an unusual and classic example...

What's the work?

Tokaido Yotsuya Kaidan was a kabuki play written in 1825 by Tsuruya Nanboku, about the original Stringy-Haired Ghost Girl that wound up being crazy influential in Japanese horror and theater. Now, I should note there have been a ton of adaptations of the Yotsuya Kaidan, but one core version, well...one constant almost remains in that its main character and villain is godawful.

Let's discuss a tale of lust, murder, greed and revenge...of the tragic Oiwa and her husband, the wicked ronin Tamiya Iemon.

Who is Tamiya Iemon?

Iemon (pronounced 'Iyemon', not "Lemon", people) is a down-on-his-luck ronin. See, the Tokugawa Shogunate had been ruling for a while and peace kinda sucks for samurai. Iemon is fired for embezzling clan fund and has to turn to selling umbrellas to make ends meet, which revolts him. Now, Iemon is married to the dutiful, gentle Oiwa, the daughter of a former high retainer, Lord Samon...and her dad fired Iemon. Awkward holidays no doubt ensue. Things are also hard for Oiwa's family, with her sister working as a prostitute to pay the bills part time. Oiwa tries to return home and her dad Samon then goes to see Iemon, knowing the guy is awful, and asks Iemon to divorce Oiwa so she can have a happier life. Iemon promptly murders Samon. Iemon then lies and says a stranger murdered Samon, and asks Oiwa to return to him so he can vow to avenge her dad's murder. Bound by duty both ways, Oiwa does so.

Iemon, btw, is the type of rugged, handsome bad boy people warn their daughters about, and the doctor-next-door's daughter Oume falls in love with him. Oiwa has just given birth to their son and is sick and slow to recover. Iemon has little money and...goes along with a plan with the doctor and Oume's family to poison Oiwa so he can hook up with Oume instead. The poison horribly disfigures Oiwa, who survives. Iemon, however, has another plan to get rid of Oiwa: hire a guy to rape her and divorce her for adultery. Iemon selects a family friend Takuetsu who's always loved Oiwa (while planning on disposing of them for said adultery)...Takuetsu, however, can't do it (I'm not sure if it's morals here or Oiwa's deformity or both), but he tells Oiwa the truth, that Iemon was responsible. Oiwa, in a fury, pulls a sword and tries to give everyone what for, but cuts her own throat by accident and dies cursing Iemon....in order to get around this little problem, and because murder is his only solution to everything he ever deals with, Iemon murders a poor servant to pass the guy off as Oiwa's illicit lover and solve that problem but good. Iemon marries Oume rolls right into wealth and power again, all is well.

.....I should note Oiwa is a bit more effective as a vengeful ghost than she was a swordswoman, by the by. Oiwa gets right to the ghostly vengeance, appearing to Iemon and terrifying him. Iemon proceeds to kill Oume, thinking she's Oiwa, kills her father and also kicks Oume's mother into a canal to drown. Oiwa continues to haunt Iemon, driving him into the wilderness as he goes crazier and crazier, until his brother in law, Osode's former husband Yomoshichi finds him insane and finishes Iemon off in almost a mercy killing.

So, mitigating qualities?

Now, heinousness...Iemon doesn't have the highest count I've ever proposed, but.....for the time period, I gotta say this is pretty bad. Multiple murders, hiring a guy to rape his own wife, driving her to her death and showing no remorse for anything? I'd say we get a pass and he's easily the worst in the play. The only other guy who's near as bad is his buddy Naosuke who has his own subplot and kills a few people, but lacks Iemon's own count and evil panache....okay, there's Oiwa's ghost who does arrange the death of the perfectly innocent Oume in the affair, but that's old school stories for you, when one's wife could be killed as a punishment to them.

Now, mitigating qualities...I should note Iemon is pissed off that he has to lower himself to sell umbrellas in poverty and some works in Japanese lit and theater do tend to treat disaffected samurai as sympathetic, especially when they were dispossessed of their lands. Problem is? Iemon was fired for embezzlement, he's not a victim at all. His care for anyone is nonexistent and he forces Oiwa right back by using vengeance for her father that he himself murdered, only to try to kill her when he finds Oume....He doesn't really care for Oume either; she's a younger, more beautiful meal ticket than Oiwa, nothing else. The other factor is...well...some of the murders are questionable as Oiwa is haunting him, but while we might excuse him murdering Oume as he thought it was Oiwa, and he was possibly going nuts when he kills Oume's father, he kills Oume's mother for no real reason on his own accord just due to anger from the stress he's under. Oiwa is also a perfectly sweet woman until she's driven to vengeance by Iemon and, y'know, her horrible death that he caused, so her anger is a wee bit excusable in my eyes.

Really, it does vary on adaptation, but yeah, Iemon is pretty much portrayed with no good qualities and as a complete and utter scoundrel.

Conclusion?

I'd say keeper. For a kabuki play, Iemon is revoltingly bad, and even with some of the niggling little details in his bodycount, he gets up to some horrible stuff well before Oiwa comes back to haunt him. (killing the servant just to have an extra corpse to make it look like Oiwa was cheating on him? all him.)

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#112581: Mar 22nd 2018 at 3:18:11 PM

[tup] lemon. For Every Villian Is Lemons.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#112582: Mar 22nd 2018 at 3:19:40 PM

[up][up][up] No idea what's happening there without context. I do think we should tag the quote in the caption under the quotes list, though. It's monstrous.

Yes to Iemon.

edited 22nd Mar '18 3:23:27 PM by Scraggle

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#112583: Mar 22nd 2018 at 3:22:10 PM

[tup] Lemonade.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#112584: Mar 22nd 2018 at 3:23:08 PM

Nazi-lady may be the worst racist, and terrifying, but she has, what, one murder by proxy?

That image may work.

[tup] Iemon. Hiring someone to rape your own wife is a new one I think surprised

[down][down] Yeah, I think I admittedly got just a BIT tongue overzealous with that one.

edited 22nd Mar '18 3:29:36 PM by ACW

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#112585: Mar 22nd 2018 at 3:23:44 PM

what did I miss?

Also, a yea on the Lemonade Racecar evil grin (Fun fact that Tamiya is another name of a mini race car toys that some kids used to play tyvm)

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#112586: Mar 22nd 2018 at 3:25:38 PM

Yes to Flaggatis, Saionji, Husnet, Brotonis, Eggnog and Iemon.

As an aside, I'm not even sure Playing with Syringes ever added anything that wouldn't already have the nasty implications covered with Mad Scientist or Mad Doctor and even those don't need to be crammed in every single time, our readers can figure it out, as Polar pointed out.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#112587: Mar 22nd 2018 at 3:28:11 PM

Always wanted to say this but [tup] To The Lemon!

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
hegelvonaxel Since: Feb, 2018
#112588: Mar 22nd 2018 at 3:31:56 PM

[tup] Lemon

Sol divide-sword of darkness will be re-released on March 22 for Nintento switch, if anyone want to check it.

hegelvonaxel Since: Feb, 2018
#112589: Mar 22nd 2018 at 3:47:52 PM

Added quote.

PS: Why isn't quote page locked?

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#112590: Mar 22nd 2018 at 4:01:22 PM

Yes to Lemon Lime.

edited 22nd Mar '18 4:01:32 PM by erazor0707

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#112591: Mar 22nd 2018 at 4:09:55 PM

Yes to the Sour Puss.note 

IPP Wick Check created.
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#112592: Mar 22nd 2018 at 4:17:17 PM

[tup] Iemon, whose name seems to have undergone a minor Memetic Mutation here.

[down][down] You deserve an EP after that one.

edited 22nd Mar '18 5:38:20 PM by PolarPhantom

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#112594: Mar 22nd 2018 at 5:11:00 PM

[up][up] We all love a name with some zest every once in a while tongue.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#112596: Mar 22nd 2018 at 5:15:13 PM

Those two, Glemmy Toto, my very own Totopepe... there are definitely some Beware the Silly Ones names out there.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#112597: Mar 22nd 2018 at 5:19:05 PM

Then of course there are those with a silly appearance, such as Bill.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#112598: Mar 22nd 2018 at 6:14:40 PM

[tup] Tamiya Iemon.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#112599: Mar 22nd 2018 at 6:16:14 PM

But in all seriousness regarding lemon, I think I heard a version of this story months back when I was looking up urban legends and folkore. Thought it sounded familar, and low and behold I was right.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#112600: Mar 22nd 2018 at 6:55:51 PM

@43110 @erazor Don't forget that Flag Eggnog and Chicken Wing is also one of the most ridiculous names for C Ms that has ever brought to this thread [lol]

And yeah....Speaking of Mulvaney image and Brotonia. I actually saw the MLP fanwork page. I don't like the current image that represent it actually and iirc there will be a serious cleanup regarding that subpage but given that it's a Berserk Button to most user in this thread...... Yea

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

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