During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yeaaaaa........Cut Towa Sad to see we need to see an attractive CM go (But Android 21 is way better lookin that her and she's not a CM hue) but that's not surprising either cuz of her counterpart's redeeming quality
Lizzid people!
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Towa. Agreed on Android 21, though.
Has the time come to talk about Knox from the Death Wish remake?
Check the discussion dates. 43 has that reserved.
One question: if Aku wasn't Made of Evil is there some chances he would have been a CM ?
Call me... Del Noir...
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
He's got more than a few humorous moments (the whole Little Red Riding Hood with FLAMING EYEBROWS being a standout example), so I find it doubtful.
I think he would have qualified. He did have enough serious moments I feel so I think it would be more like Hades from Kid Icarus Uprising if he had full agency.
Call me... Del Noir...
Guess we'll never know, huh? Oh well. He'll always be the epitome of Evil Is Cool in my eyes, and we'll always have the High Priestess and the Dominator, some solid keeps in their own right.
edited 16th Mar '18 8:41:07 AM by JoeBlitz
"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Cut Towa.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Mephi but abstain on Marcus.
Could we stop constantly bringing up Aku, please? Like, ever again unless he actually invalidates his mitigating factors?
edited 16th Mar '18 8:48:26 AM by Scraggle
Especially when he's been put on the never again list for this exact reason
Alright, this is the second time Knox has come up so I'm going to settle this one now.
Short answer:
He does not count, he's not heinous enough.
Long answer:
There are a few reasons why I think this, firstly being that even though he's the one to shoot Kersey's family, he also tries to stop Joe from raping Jordan, wanting the robbery to go as quickly and smoothly as possibly and only fires when facing resistance from his captives. Overall, in this scene, he lacks Joe's sadism and comes across as too pragmatic to be revelling in the cruelty of his actions like he could be.
Next up, he doesn't even have that bad of an established pattern, all things considered. Although it's implied he's responsible for other home invasions, nothing indicates he's a Serial Killer or has a high death toll, this just seems to be a particularly messy robbery.
There's also the issue of the very minor villain, the Candyman, who uses kids as drug mules, resulting in one getting shot and injured. Although he's given very little focus and almost zero characterization, his crimes are made explicit and forcing kids to run drugs for you is a pretty bad thing to get up to.
Finally, even when confronting Kersey in the club, Knox does take a captive and happily opens fire upon Kersey in a crowded area but at the end of the day, he's just trying to kill the hero in this scene and just being pretty callous while doing it. In the climax, he invades Kersey's home once again with two of his thugs and threatens his daughter's life while trying to kill Kersey before getting offed.
All in all, his plans are way too small scale to stand out, especially in a work that thrives off the idea of a Crapsack World meaning we need to take the laws into our own hands. His crimes are shooting a mother and daughter in a robbery gone wrong, robbing other houses and trying to kill the hero in a crowded area. He just doesn't stand out, especially when there's the sadistic Joe and child abusing Candyman running around in the same movie.
edited 16th Mar '18 8:56:52 AM by 43110
Yes yes yes! Cut Towa! I always disagreed with her being listed!
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Scraggle, has a point, when an example has an absolute conclusion, it's never to be brought up again.
IPP Wick Check created.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, here's a de-potholed, slightly tweaked Demigra:
- Dragon Ball Xenoverse: The Demon God, Demigra, was imprisoned in a crack in time by the Supreme Kai of Time. To free himself, he sends out an image capable of acting on the physical plane to cause chaos and distort time. One of the timelines has him brainwashing Piccolo into trying to kill Goten and Trunks. Another has him trying to brainwash Beerus into destroying Earth. After his release, he plans to destroy the universe and reshape it so that everything revolves around him.
Goku Black
Alright Ginis images are in the draft for you to take and collage.
edited 16th Mar '18 9:48:17 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Speaking of Dragon Ball, have we already talked about the villains from the movies?
edited 16th Mar '18 12:08:48 PM by NTG
Yes, we have talked about every single villain in the movies. Broly and Cooler have had so much discussion bringing them up again is worthless.
Goku Black
Yeah all movie villains have been discused. Short answer is that most dont meet the high heinousness standerd set by freeza, Cell, buu or Zamasu/Goku black while broly might be bad enough, hes also legit insane.
edited 16th Mar '18 11:35:23 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Broly came closest, but has agency and Freudian Excuse problems. Indeed, in certain alternate non canon stories, Broly is a better person due to having a less awful upbringing. As for Cooler, TFS said it best when he's just discount Freeza, not to mention he's a lot less awful to his underlings.
Ok, good to know that they already have been disussed. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity
Towa and Knox.
Alrighty, I'm going to start this post by asking we all go into this with a level head but after talking this over a bit with Scraggs and Lighty, I think I've got ample reason to request we cut the Salamanca twins.
While I'm happy to write off their attempts to avenge Tuco and insults to Hector as their fanatical "family first" mentality, I think they genuinely love each other as brothers. In a scene where Hector is training them in his thinking, we have him demonstrate the importance of family by trying to drown one when the other gets pissed at his brother for taking his toy. The brother with the toy's response? To burst into tears immediately and beg Hector to let his brother live.
Now there is the argument they learned from Hector to value family above all else and there's nothing genuine about how they behave but I don't see any indication that they ever stop caring about each other. It's possible that the twin who survives their fight with Hank just tries to avenge his brother for family honour but it's just as possible he's doing it because he loved his brother.
To me, nothing they do ever subverts that scene where one cries and begs for the other to be spared to their uncle. So there, those are my thoughts. Debate and stuff.
So that's what, 4 cuts now? Rico & his partner; Towa; Killgrave; and I think one more (Scraggle, for some reason I'm thinking it's one you mentioned, but I can't remember for sure). I'll file those along with the locking of Valiant tomorrow.
EDIT: Malachite was the 4th (along with the de-potholed Mechakara
)..
edited 16th Mar '18 7:36:49 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts