During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Cut to the Suburban Knights guy.
Alright I got two candidates from the Marvel Christopher Yost Animated Universe, coming up. One simple, the other a case of Adapational Villainy. After this is out of the way, I plan on talking about the movie version of Mephisto.
I'll get the simple one out of the way first as he is a familiar character in Sabretooth, in his incarnation in Wolverine and the X-Men which while considerably tamer, is the same character as the one in Hulk Vs., due to sharing the same continuity.
Who is Sabretooth ? What Does He Do ?
A member of the Weapon X Program, and one of their top assassins, acting as the de-facto leader of the assassins and working closely with the head of Weapon X, Professor Thorton. Sabretooth oversaw their "jobs" and was complicit in their experiments. Back when Wolverine was part of Weapon X, Sabretooth was his partner and handler and in one job they where sent to kill a mutant named Christopher North, who had the power kinetic absorption. Wolverine refuses to go through with the job when he sees North's daughter Kristie. Sabretooth seemingly kills North himself, making it seem that Wolverine did it, with Sabretooth belittling him for being "soft". A fight breaks out and Wolverine manages to save Kristie after knocking Sabretooth out. While North was presumed dead, he was captured and taken into Weapon X, had his memory wiped and made into another assassin dubbed "Maverick".
Later on, Weapon X has been experimenting on their soldiers through genetic and surgical modifications. And it turns out Mystique was also part of Weapon X and had a...history with Wolverine that he doesn't remember. As they attempt to forcibly experiment on her, Wolverine manages to rescue her with Sabretooth trying to stop their escape attempt. Wolverine tells Sabretooth that what they are doing is wrong and they can't force this on people, to which he exclaims "YES I CAN!" and the two fight again, while Wolverine tells Mystique to run. As later shown in Hulk Vs., Wolverine himself was put through these experiments and they where about as torturous as you'd expect.
Which leads us to Hulk Vs., which is set before Wolverine and the X-Men and much more darker and violent than the more kids orientated cartoon. Here Weapon X has got their sights on the Hulk, with Sabretooth being sent to capture him alongside fellow assassins Deadpool and Omega Red. They corner him in a small town and a fight ensues with the assassins callous about civilian casualties, unlike the Hulk who goes out of his way to save people from Weapon X. Long story short the Hulk escapes and the government gets Wolverine to help track him down; after a fight between Wolverine and the Hulk, Sabretooth and his team corner and capture them. Taking them back to the facilities, the plan is to force Hulk into being another assassin for Weapon X; Sabretooth wants to kill Wolverine, but Professor Thorton plans on forcing him back into Weapon X. Sabretooth claws Thorton in the back, seemingly killing him. While Sabretooth pins down a weakened Wolverine he makes a note about their healing factor and how he's gonna enjoy killing Wolverine for days, and once they are in control of the Hulk, they'll just drop him on an orphanage "just for fun". Wolverine manages to escape and bust Bruce Banner out and triggers a Hulk transformation just as Sabretooth and the others corner them. Sabretooth is the first the Hulk goes after, knocking him out of the facility and into a nearby mountain, leaving only Sabretooth and Deadpool as the survivors out of all the assassins.
Back to the more kid friendly show, when Wolverine is having trouble piecing together his memories, he tracks down the farmhouse that Christopher North used to live in where he encounters a now teenage Kirstie, a mutant with the power to manipulate rock and earth. Sabretooth is sent by Weapon X to recapture Wolverine, during which the two confront eachother with Sabretooth continuing to belittle Wolverine about being "soft" and "gutless". Kirstie realizes Sabretooth is responsible for her father's presumed death, encases him in rock and tosses him into a river. Of course Sabretooth survives and later tells a confused Maverick about his daughter. In a later episode, Weapon X manages to abduct Kirstie with the intent on making her another assassin, prompting Wolverine and Mystique to team up and rescue her and Maverick. Once they reach the facility, Sabretooth shows up once again to fight Wolverine and makes a final attempt to kill him and Mystique when the facility goes into self destruct mode. Mystique manages to knock Sabretooth out, and she and Wolverine manage to rescue the North's. Considering that's the last chronological appearance of Sabretooth before the place goes up, it can be assumed he was killed in the explosion (but considering he survived getting punched hundreds of feet into a mountain by the Hulk, who knows ? Either way we never see him again).
Redeeming Qualites or Freudian Excuse ?
Approximately none. In all his appearances he is a malicious prick, and as demonstrated in Hulk Vs. a total sadist.
He demonstrates or shows no care or loyalty to the others of the Weapon X program and often disobeys orders to try to kill him, even going as far as to claw at his bosses back to do so (although that turns out to be non fatal). In Wolverine and the X-Men he's got this Evil Cannot Comprehend Good vibe as he hates Wolverine is for being "soft" and blames this softness on a supposed relationship between him and Mystique. He also disparages Wolverine for saving Mystique from Weapon X's torturous experiments as "passing up the opportunity of a lifetime!" He also at one point implies he had some brotherly relationship with Wolverine in the past, but that's clearly out the window nowadays.
Heinousness
This bit is what slows me.
Now considering that Hulk Vs. is Darker and Edgier, while in continuity with Wolverine and the X-Men, Sabretooth comes off as more tame in his appears cree the latter in comparison, but they are still the same character none the less.
In his appearance in Hulk Vs., Sabretooth is a lot more closer to his comic counterpart when it comes to being a savage sadist and a bit of a brute. He also took part in a rampage that occurred in a small town along with the other assassins in an attempt to catch the Hulk, and it's shown that they are the ones responsible for the collateral damage and civilian casualties. There's also his line to Wolverine "Gotta love our healing factors, I'm gonna enjoy killing you for days...and then I think we'll drop the Hulk on an orphanage or something. Just for fun."
As for his appearances in Wolverine and the X-Men, he comes off as The Heavy for Dr. Thorton, being one of Weapon X's top assassins, as well as being complicit in their experiments on their members (the show tries to give him some responsibility in those experiments when Wolverine tells him "You can't force this on anyone" and Sabretooth says "Yes I can!") he's also in charge on overseeing some of their missions, notably the seeming assassination on Christopher North and having him turned into Maverick.
But that's about it.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."So guys, a deleted scene
involving Captain Phasma and here original death scene from The Last Jedi was posted recently. Personally I think that this one's better, since this might be the only scene in the films that shows Phasma's traitorous side.
edited 14th Mar '18 12:37:31 PM by toonyloon
I... don't know. Sabretooth feels like he's missing an edge or something here. All of that just seems like part and parcel for a supervillain at his level aside from that quip he makes to Wolverine — which, honestly, just seems like a throwaway threat.
He rampages through a village, kills a few people, some experiments on the side — so what? I expect this from a supervillain, especially one like Victor Creed. I'm saying nay.
edited 14th Mar '18 12:54:45 PM by Scraggle
You might have a point that something feels missing here.
BTW. For xeno, the write-up for Dickson is spoiled weirdly. So zanza is completey spoiled on the ymmv but just mentioned casualy in the write-up for Dickson.
Heres a slight tweak.
- originial: Dickson starts the game off as a seemingly helpful mentor and father figure to our protagonists, particularly Shulk and Dunban. This all changes after Shulk refuses to kill Egil after defeating him. Dickson shows up and shoots Shulk In the Back, releasing his master Zanza, the true Big Bad. He then reveals that he's Zanza's disciple, and never cared at all for the people of Bionis, acting only to ensure Zanza was properly revived—then assisting in his wishes to kill off everyone so he can enact the destruction/reconstruction of the world. He tries to finish off the party with an army of Telethia, gleefully asserting that he's Not Brainwashed when they propose he is. When the High Entia army shows up to save the heroes, he and fellow disciple Lorithia convert them all into mindless Telethia, including Melia's brother, Kallian, whose remarks to his sister whilst transforming they promptly mock. Shortly after this, he arrives in Colony 6, now the residence of the surviving people of Bionis, with more Telethia, hoping to exterminate them all. He further taunts Melia, mocking her brother by proposing he might be her boyfriend in the next life. Ultimately, he reveals his motivation for his actions is that he wants to have the powers of a god in the next world. Thus, he willingly helps Zanza's atrocities with a sadistic smile on his face, no regrets or remorse, only feeling fear when it's hinted Shulk might be stronger than Zanza.
- rewrite Dickson starts the game off as a seemingly helpful mentor and father figure to our protagonists, particularly Shulk and Dunban. This all changes after Shulk refuses to kill Egil after defeating him. Dickson shows up and shoots Shulk In the Back, releasing his master Zanza, the true Big Bad. He then reveals himself as said masters disciple, and never cared at all for the people of Bionis, acting only to ensure Zanza was properly revived—then assisting in his wishes to kill off everyone so he can enact the destruction/reconstruction of the world. He tries to finish off the party with an army of Telethia, gleefully asserting that he's Not Brainwashed when they propose he is. When the High Entia army shows up to save the heroes, he and fellow disciple Lorithia convert them all into mindless Telethia, including Melia's brother, Kallian, whose remarks to his sister whilst transforming they promptly mock. Shortly after this, he arrives in Colony 6, now the residence of the surviving people of Bionis, with more Telethia, hoping to exterminate them all. He further taunts Melia, mocking her brother by proposing he might be her boyfriend in the next life. Ultimately, he reveals his motivation for his actions is that he wants to have the powers of a god in the next world. Thus, he willingly helps with his masters atrocities with a sadistic smile on his face, no regrets or remorse, only feeling fear when it's hinted Shulk might be stronger than said master.
edited 14th Mar '18 1:17:11 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."@ACW: Is Rico and his unnamed partner among those 3 cuts?
I'll abstain on Sabertooth and agree to cut Malachite
edited 14th Mar '18 1:31:54 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
I could go either way honestly when it comes to spoilering him. Maybe wait for other opnions.
Though yeah something did feel off about sabretooth that I couldnt quite put my finger on and it was that he lacks that edge that shadow king, selene, Sebastain shaw and red skull (who count in this contiuity have). Sadly swicthing to
edited 14th Mar '18 1:36:53 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I say if possible, like if it's from a very recent work, or if it's a Walking Spoiler, as long as it can be done without having a white entry.
De-potholed Mechakara:
- Atop the Fourth Wall: Mechakara is a robot from an Alternate Universe where Linkara's Robot Buddy Pollo turned evil, killed him, and robots overthrew humanity. His plans revolved around sending Linkara into a mental breakdown; and, when that fails, he captures him and plans to kill him slowly, simply because his death went too fast the first time around. While that would normally make him just another killer robot, he stands out when, after getting the magic MacGuffin that he came for, he decides instead to destroy all organic life in the multiverse. During the Silent Hill Dead/Alive videos, Mechakara slowly mind rapes Linkara into thinking he's the (actually long dead) man who tortured his daughter to create Linkara's Magic Gun and almost convinces him to kill himself. In To Boldly Flee, Mechakara passes himself off as Linkara and infiltrates the USS Exit Strategy, intending to kill the entire crew with the help of the forcibly assimilated Todd and Nostalgia Chick. Mechakara would later assimilate the crew of the Caelestis space station and drained the life force of one astronaut in an attempt to recharge the ship. Only working with others when his goals coincide with theirs and perfectly willing to kill them otherwise, Mechakara is fueled only by his hatred for Linkara and all organic life forms.
edited 14th Mar '18 1:46:09 PM by ACW
I have always been of the strong opinion that the YMMV page can have the spoilers blanked out, but the main page should never have any spoilers blocked. You should always be expecting spoilers when looking on the main tropes page.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.I've always felt spoilers should be minimized, whatever that takes. The idea of recent works getting spoilered is going to require a lot of work down the line when they're deemed no longer recent and have to be edited to remove.
I feel the best way to deal with it is just to write entries with end game spoilers in mind, so that kinda shit can be blanked out in a small box as opposed to taking out entire phrases/sentences.

Oh, Malachite's actual final fate? Is another strike against him, actually. A side video released after the film reveals Malachite has been cursed to the eternal fate of working as a cashier at a cafe where he's comedically kicked around by his boss.
Again, I ask; is this really the comeuppance that a villain who qualifies for this trope deserves?
edited 14th Mar '18 10:53:10 AM by Scraggle