During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
BTW, this is a digression so there's no need to actually answer it, but the Star Wars mention got me wondering - how many works do we have where the Disc-One Final Boss counted but the actual final villain(s) did not?
Lilith, but weakly
Yung, while peers concern for him isn't really a disqualifying factor, he does fail in heinousness department at this stage.
Now the first of my hopefully two discussions on media based on Romance of the Three Kingdoms(through not the novel itself), but it's a short one. Nevertheless there is a bit of a rant directed towards some gaming "critics" in the end tied to the work I'm discussing if you would bear with me.
What is the work?
Dynasty Warriors 9 is quite possibly, the most polarizing game of 2018, or at least thus far. Dynasty Warriors games traditionally do not have strong critical scores in the West due to It's the Same, Now It Sucks! but usually have a small cult following. This game however managed to divide the cult following and even turned off some of the few official critics that actually liked Dynasty Warriors like Jim Sterling. This is because it adapts the open world model, and people have been complaining that the open world model makes the game boring. I personally? I liked the game, I admit the gameplay wasn't really glowing, but I played the game for the story and I find this one of the best renditions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms story done by Koei and Omega Force yet. A lot of the characterization was much better and the excessive flanderization that plagued the series since 6(but arguably started in 5) is much more toned down.
So overall in my opinion, it's a mediocre Dynasty Warriors game, but an actually good Three Kingdoms game because of the story. And honestly, the only reason we're having this discussion is because when I saw how well the characterization was done and I wondered if we could get a qualifier out of this.
Also, play the game with Chinese of Japanese dubs along with english subs. The english dub is horrible and I chalk this up to Koei not caring much about localization due to the animosity that critics traditionally give them so they just hire random actors that don't have much experience with dubbing.
The story of Dynasty Warriors 9 is a condensed and loose retelling(through it's much more in-depth retelling this time around) of the Chinese classic novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms. The tale begins in the last days of the corrupt Han Dynasty of China, where chaos and anarchy reigns supreme. Eventually the land is divided into the titular three kingdoms, Shu Han of Liu Bei, which seeks to restore the Han dynasty under his rule, Cao Wei of Cao Cao, which seeks to bring an end to the chaos and restore peace(in the original source material, where he is a major villain, he simply seeks to gain power), and Sun Wu of Sun Ce and later Sun Quan after the former's death, which seeks to maintain it's independence. Eventually the land is united under the kingdom of Jin, which overthrows the Wei Emperor and creates a new dynasty of their own. Dynasty Warriors 9 follows the story up to the fall of Shu and the establishiment of Jin.
With that said, onto the qualifiers.
As it turns out, no one qualifies. Everyone has significant redeeming qualities or are significantly well intentioned and the narrative presents a balanced picture of each side. There are a few characters that the narrative does take a side against such as Lu Bu and arguably Jiang Wei in the final act, but the former genuinely loves his daughter and breaks things off with Diao Chan because he dosen't want her to suffer in the chaos that would result from the power vaccum that emerges Dong Zhuo's death. Jiang Wei is presented as The Unfettered and a Knight Templar willing to win a war that Shu has no chance of wining at all costs regardless of the consequences or the odds, with Shu Emperor Liu Shan, whom the original novel writes off as a corrupt hedonistic coward, getting significant Adaptational Heroism by being the Only Sane Man opposing Jiang Wei's war and willing to relinquish his powers and be remembered in the history books as a traitor if it means restoring peace. However, Jiang Wei is presented as being driven to fufill the desires of the late Zhuge Liang and Liu Bei, and he is never presented as fully evil.
Now the worst character in the game is Dong Zhuo. A corrupt warlord that takes control of the Han court after the fall of the Yellow Turban rebellion and twists the emperor to fulfill his own twisted schemes of turning China into his "paradise" of hedonism and debauchery. He is more fleshed out even through his personality is still a Card-Carrying Villain(he flat out says he wants to spread hedonism and debauchery across China). However, even through most of his characterization is fleshed out, much of his evilness is Informed Attribute and Offscreen Villainy . His worst action is to burn down the Han capital city of Luoyang, but we only get like a 3-second cutscene of buildings burning. His own route shows him doing generic corrupt politician stuff like bribing corrupt officials and bribing Lu Bu to join his side, which I don't think hits any baseline. He also has an Even Evil Has Loved Ones moment with his granddaughter Dong Bai.
And if you're wondering, while Dong Zhuo is even worse in Romance of the Three Kingdoms, resorting to rape and cannibalism as well as the corruption and the burning down of Luoyang, he dosen't qualify there either. That's because ROTTK!Dong Zhuo has a case of Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas. He could qualify in the2010 TV adaptation of Romance of the Three Kingdoms but I don't have the time to watch it.
The only character that I think has a chance of qualifying in the original source material itself, Wu Emperor Sun Hao, makes no appearance in this game.
So overall, in conclusion, no one qualifies. And honestly, it's a good thing no one does. I feel ROTTK, while it has some obviously evil characters like Dong Zhuo, works better as a tragedy where all sides could be seen as victims or driven by honorable motives.
Now onto my little rant. Jim Sterling's views of the game are just his views, play it for your self and keep the story of the novel in mind, and don't play with the english dub open. This is one of the games you have to play on your own to make a decision. And frankly, it was low of him to declare the entire franchise as objectively bad or having jumped the shark a looooong time ago(like after Dynasty Warriors 3) and regurgitating every point American critics make against Koei, especially since Japanese audiences and even loyal Dynasty Warriors and Musou fans that hate Dynasty Warriors 9 but like the other warriors games would disagree with his assessment.
I will have the other discussion up by tomorrow if not today. Both Dynasty Warriors 9 and the other three kingdoms era game are made by Koei btw.
edited 27th Feb '18 6:58:32 AM by xie323
I have one question. In the franchises with above six monsters, can one of Anti-Villain be worse than one of C Ms? For example, Tywin isn't complete monster while Craster is, yet lot of people would call Tywin worse than Craster.
I will say that the reason I am trying to do the next three kingdoms related EP on this day I admit is to make up for DW 9 not having a CM so I decided to look into one of the other games Koei made.
edited 27th Feb '18 6:59:19 AM by xie323
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Assuming similar resources and such, probably not; the supposed CM would get out-heinoused. In that specific case though, Craster's unique; I don't think anyone else is such a serial incestuous rapist.
Also, for Pokemon, a proposed new header:
Pokémon has a wide variety of characters. Many of the worst are worse than any of the titular monsters.
edited 27th Feb '18 8:26:16 AM by ACW
Okay, having just finished The Red Monarch, I'll
Vladik Cardinous.
And I'll
Vigo Boradsov.
Just watched In Time, from 2011. EXTREMELY under appreciated movie in my opinion. I was originally gonna propose Fortis, turns out, he was already regarded as a CM. Fun.
Anyway, draft time:
- Wallander:
- Rolf Liljeberg, from "The Secret", at first seems like a really nice guy who is enjoying his retirement after a long career as a police officer. He helps the protagonists find the man who killed a boy named Johannes, the suspect being one of Rolf's friends Magnus. He manages to keep a really good façade, but his true colors are shown when Stefan remembers how he was heavily abused by Rolf as a child, and a flashback scene is shown where Stefan is running away from Rolf and gets his scar. Stefan goes home to Rolf, and constantly points his gun against Rolf and is willing to shoot him. Rolf laughs and wants Stefan to kill him, since he'll never get away with it. He also states that no one else has successfully tried getting away with similar things previously either. A picture can be seen of a young Stefan naked in Rolf's house. All of this is too much for Stefan to handle, so he commits suicide. It is also now revealed that Rolf is behind the murder of Johannes as well. In his last scene, he kills one of his friends for revealing to much information to the police and tries killing her child as well, but fails. Even in a series like Wallander, where all of the main antagonists have murdered at the very least one person, Rolf stands out as one of the few, if not the only, pedophile in the series.
- Alfred Hardeberg, from The Man who Smiled, at first comes across as a friendly, philanthropic businessman who helps Wallander find the killer who murdered Sten Torstensson and his father. He is the killer. He hires two assassins who kill Sten and his father after a business deal that didn't go as he wanted, as well as blowing up different places in the process. He is able to foreshadow his true colors for a big part of the story, but once he is revealed as the killer, some even deeper secrets are revealed. Due to his latest project with his daughter Kristina, TLL; a way poor people can donate their organs to wealthy people. In order to test the project, he, along with his daughter, kill alot of children. In the end, due to his high popularity, he gets away with it all in the end.
- The aforementioned Kristina Hardeberg may be newer to the business, but is none the less a stone cold sociopath, even more so than her father. While Alfred atleast managed to have a good façade, Kristina seemed somewhat strange even from the beginning.The primary lead of TLL, she is technically more involved in child murdering than Alfred, and is also equally as involved in hiring assassins. She is shown killing a random man from her and Alfred's house for fun, before asking if she can kill Wallander as well. While certainly younger than other villains, Kristina still stands out as a child murdering sociopath who had no freudian excuse for what she had become.
- Heinrich Böhle, from "The Pyramid", is a criminal mastermind who is seeking to destroy drug dealer Yngve Holm's entire life after a drug deal gone wrong. Introduced during a flashback scene during Wallander's early police career, a gunshot can be heard inside an old man's house while Wallander is having a fun time with one of his best friends outside. Wallander hears this, and sees Böhle, who manages to escape the scene, killing Wallander's friend in the process. 25 years later, Böhle meets Wallander again, but is even more sadistic and evil this time around. He is this time around introduced shooting an helicopter with two people in it for fun. After one of Yngve Holm's drug dealers accidentally causes an overdose, Böhle, scared that he might get caught by the police, targets Holm's family and friends. He starts out by kidnapping Yngve's sister, and taping her around a chair, he puts a heart rate monitor on her, so that if she tries escaping her heart rate will go up, and a bomb will explode, blowing up the entire house. Her sister comes and tries saving her, but the house blows up, killing them both. Böhle then meets with Yngve's right-hand Frank, and kills him as well. To complete his killing spree, he kidnaps Yngve's daughter who he puts a bomb on. He puts a heart rate monitor on himself this time so that if his heart rate goes below 50 or over 90, the bomb will explode. Despite murder being a very common aspect in the Wallander series, Böhle stands out as a psychopath who only wanted to destroy and kill for his own benefit.
Yea to Cardinous and Vigo.
@ nrj, Off the top of my head there's Lutendorff (spelling?) from Wonder Woman and The Emir (who I put up recently) from Kite. Oh, also, another guy I put up, Kellum from Dirk Gently, who got killed off in the penultimate episode while his (not as evil) protege went on to antagonize people for the finale.
@ hegel, Echoing ACW, yeah, a CM has to be the worst person at their level of resources to count, so the only time a less evil person can do more than them is if they've got more to work with.
Though, in that case, the ultimate Big Bad counts as well.
edited 27th Feb '18 7:39:23 AM by 43110
Disc-One Final Boss characters that count as a CM? Well, we got Aizen from Bleach. He's one of the more infamous ones, I guess.
EDIT Just realised I misread the question and am a fool since the Final Boss of Bleach is a CM.
edited 27th Feb '18 8:29:19 AM by PolarPhantom
As far as a Disc-One Final Boss that qualifies while the Final Boss doesn't. Theres Kurata from Digimon Savers who comes to mind as yggdrasril/ king Drasil (the true Final Boss ) doesn't qualify.
edited 27th Feb '18 7:56:04 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Disc One Final Boss? Mmmmm.....Does any starter villains like Kamoshida or Anjuro Katagiri count as one? I can make case with the latter as the big bad in Di U doesn't qualify and you know who he is
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."So what to do about Dr. Yung and Gharnef?
And thoughts on making this the new header?
Pokémon has a wide variety of characters. Many of the worst are worse than any of the titular monsters.
I dunno if that works since very few Pokemon are anything other than lovable. For someone like Stephen King, who writes lots of terrifying non human antagonists, it works, but I don't think the wording is appropriate for Pokemans.
I've done both, the Shadow Lord was discussed before and deemed a generic Evil Overlord.
Edit: My bad, that's not quite it, it's that he appears so infrequently, we get way too little insight onto his character. He's got the acts but doesn't get personified enough to count.
edited 27th Feb '18 9:10:57 AM by 43110
I find the Gold-Toothed Doctor's entry to be bloated and reads awkwardly, here's my proposed rewrite:
- The unnamed Doctor with the gold tooth created the homunculus Wrath by inserting Philosopher's Stones into the bodies of thirteen candidates, cackling when the process painfully killed the first twelve. Using the now mindless bodies of the first dozen candidates, the Doctor unleashes them upon the heroes trying to stop Father from destroying Amestris. To force Mustang to open the Gate of Truth, the Doctor slits the throat of his Love Interest so she will bleed to death unless he opens it to save her. Knowing full well Father's plan would kill millions, the Doctor only strives to cause as much death as he can.
Given crossing it is literally a prerequisite to getting on the trope, I'd agree.
edited 27th Feb '18 9:35:56 AM by 43110

@G-editor. I was speaking about this guy:
He received seven votes to be cut, yet he is still listed.