During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@43110 That hurts but at least I'm glad to get this character out of my chest
@Scraggle @Fried Warthog Alright.... Thanks for the recommendation. I may or may not read the story and if that character didnt qualify.... I'm cool with that. Also, iirc i heard that it has some kind of Bittersweet ending iirc
And slight yea on Galvatron
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Galvatron. I was reading Amber's anti E Ps for Vargo and Tywin, when i noticed term "described in details". Do you think that something should be said about this on administrative page?
Yeah Galvatron's actions kind of remind me of Grings Kodai from Pokemon a villain who commits standard villainy only managing to qualify by performing a particular heinous action that manages to stand out (for Grings its electrocuting a child in front of his mother and then killing his mother before she comes back to life via electrocution.)
Speaking of Pokemon I wonder if we should cut Dr. Yung from Pokémon: The Mastermind of Mirage Pokémon? Given that he has the least heinous deeds of the Monsters listed there the ambiguity of his death, his peers concerns for him despite after all he's done and the fact that an similar character Faba, has committed more or less the same heinous deeds than Dr. Yung (trying to forcibly scan someones minds, endangering the lives of his peer, using Pokemon for their own purpose, though for Faba it was to a little girl seemingly making the latter worse than Dr. Yung) though Faba managed to find some form of redemption. Given that Dr. Yung might have found redemption hadn't the building collapsed above him as well as the ambiguity of his death scene (saying he had more work to do before catching up with Professor Oak before running towards the burning building) and the concern his peers had for him makes me unsure if he still qualifies. This is my opinion on wether he should be cut, but I'm open to hear other people's opinions on the matter.
I'll give a
for Kor
edited 26th Feb '18 2:37:07 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Heydrich and Galvatron. Speaking of characters that have one stand out crime, my own candidate, Victor Zaitsev only really has one big crime, but MAN is it bad: using a Kill Sat to cook an entire city, boiling hundreds of thousands at the very least for an agonising death. He then threatened to do it elsewhere. If it weren't for that opening cutscene, I would never have done him.
And Scraggle is right, Errol's never going up.
Speaking of...
Alright, I’m gonna give Kor a try. I’ve been refreshing my memory, so any corrections would be appreciated, but I have beaten the game a few times so I have some clout here. I also rewatched a bunch of cutscenes with Kor on You Tube for research purposes.
What is the work?
Jak and Daxter is a game series set in a fantastical world powered by “Eco” and the technologies of the highly advanced Precursors. In Jak II, our hero and his friends are accidentally sent into the dystopian future plagued by both the already listed Baron Praxis and the true Big Bad:
Who is he? What has he done?
Metal Kor is the leader of the Metal Heads, said to have been behind the destruction of the Precursor Civilisation and running unopposed “throughout the universe”. Not much is known of their origins other than that.
He makes his first appearance right at the start of the game, coming through the recently activated Rift Gate and attacking Sandover Village right before our heroes travel in themselves, finding themselves in aforementioned crappy city.
While Jak is being tortured and experimented on by Praxis, Kor gets to work having his underling Kaeden sabotage Haven City’s defences, threatening Kaeden with “extermination” if he fails. This is the plot for the Midquel, Daxter, where the furry sidekick has to stop Kaeden from using his Metal Bugs to pave the way for Kor’s Metal Head army. Kaeden himself is conflicted, mostly because Kor is deliberately keeping him in the dark about his true plans. Kor then decides on a Plan B: Like Kaeden, Kor can take on a human form. Kor ingratiates himself with La Résistance to get close to Jak and “The Kid” – who is actually Jak as a child before being sent back in time and creating a Stable Time Loop I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Kor needs Jak as a child because he’s the only one pure enough to open the last Precursor Stone, a powerful artefact that is truly an egg containing Precursor Life Force. Or something, there’s a plot twist in 3 with the Precursors making this whole plot thread weird, but all you have to know is Kor wants the egg to hatch so he can eat the Precursor he thinks is inside. Adult Jak is corrupted by the Dark Eco Praxis used in his experiments, so he can’t do it.
Kor has a deal with Praxis: In exchange for Eco, Kor will only have his forces attack the city to help justify Praxis’ cruel rule. However, Kor sends Jak the Player Character to sabotage these operations, thus justifying more extreme attacks while Praxis is forced to acquiesce. Kor doesn’t just destroy the city wholesale because the city walls keep out his forces and inhibits his powers.
But eventually the Stone is found and Praxis steals it. But Kor finally reveals his true self once the city’s shield is down, no longer inhibiting his powers, and kills Praxis – who like Griffith did nothing wrong – and kidnaps young Jak, promising to tear Haven City apart to find the recently uncovered egg. Jak and Daxter take the egg to power Mar’s Gun to crack open the Metal Head Nest, where Kor reveals his plan which I’ve already been over. Presumably he will then send his forces to kill everyone in Haven City since that’s been his goal since the beginning. Indeed, the heores seem certain this will happen unless Kor is slain. Boss fight, Kor is killed, young Jak goes back in time and everything’s fine until Jak 3.
Mitigating Factors?
Nope. He displays no affection for his race, just a desire to dominate. He really isn’t a GDV despite what you might have heard: He is cruel and arrogant, and capable of putting up a kindly old man façade.
Agency might be an issue. Most Metal Heads are animalistic in nature and it is difficult to say if they have higher thought functions. Kor and Kaeden are the only ones to demonstrate sapience in addition to sentience. Still, like Scraggle, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt. Both Kor and Kaeden can pretend to be legit and Kaeden does seem conflicted by his master’s demands, upset that he isn’t being let in on the bigger plot. And Kor is more than happy to threaten him, so that’s something.
He keeps his deal with Praxis but is constantly seeking to undermine it with Jak. Not to mention he betrays and kills Praxis once the city’s shield is deactivated.
Heinous Standard?
Pretty tough, given how bad some villains are. Praxis is a cruel dictator pulling terrible experiments, Errol goes on to almost destroy the world, Count Veger is responsible for all sorts of cruel, underhanded schemes and is responsible for ruining Jak’s life all to destroy the DARKNESS.
Still, let’s have a little look at what Kor did: He helped facilitate Praxis’ dystopia for the purposes of Eco bribes, tries to undermine the deal so he can attack more without Praxis being able to say anything, kidnaps a child so he can open an egg to eat a baby and is seemingly responsible for the destruction of an ancient civilisation – which is offscreen but he does try and destroy Haven City throughout Jak II, so I think I’ll let that slide. While Praxis wants to control the city with an iron grip, Kor just wants to kill everyone and rule over the Wasteland that remains. So I’m inclined to say he maybe passes – barely, though I imagine there will be disagreement, especially with Errol. Still Errol is just one other villain and he has his own access to ancient weapons, so I guess he doesn’t screw with the standard too much.
Conclusion?
I’m leaning keep. While Praxis is more personally vile, Kor is an utter bastard that seeks as much death as possible, so I think with that in mind he probably counts.
edited 26th Feb '18 2:30:31 PM by PolarPhantom
Tentative yes for Kor, who'd be the second CM (at least) played by Sherman Howard.
Thought it over a while. Yes to Kor. While Praxis functions as a horrible personal villain, Kor more than makes up for it with body count and sheer wide-ranging viciousness. A lot of Praxis' worst deeds wouldn't even be possible without the existence of Kor, and I'm inclined to give him an edge over Erol when it comes to deliberate cruelty. Thanks for taking this, Polar.
You're welcome Scraggle. I should thank you for letting me handle him.
As for where he'll go, I'm gonna say before Praxis. He appears first and is the real Big Bad and Final Boss, so while Praxis is my preferred baddie, I think Kor should be listed first.
Metal Kor
Anyways here is the writeup for Ri D!Galvatron since it's a solid upvote:
- Megatron is the leader of the Predacons, having arrived on Earth in search of the Autobot Weapon Fortress Maximus under the pretext of raiding Earth for it's energy. Upon arrival, he kidnaps Doctor Kenneth Onishi and probes his mind to find the location of Fortress Maximus. After receiving knowledge of the Autobot Protoforms, Megatron corrupts their sparks in order to create his Decepticons. Althrough initially a Benevolent Boss to his minions if they prove themselves worthy of respect, he discards these qualities upon his rebirth as the Decepticon Galvatron—absorbing the energies of the Predacon Brothers against their will to power his new body immediately upon his transformation, and later reducing Scourge and the Decepticons to mindless drones for plotting to overthrow him with the use of Fortress Maximus. Galvatron's worst actions however, came during the finale when, after surviving a battle with Fortress Maximus, transforms into bat form and drains Fortress Maximus' energy to power himself. He then unleashes his bat swarm to brainwash human children with the goal of enslaving them and repeating the process from planet to planet until he has conquered the universe, threatening to harm the children if Omega Supreme or the Autobots intervene. When the Autobots flee into the Space Bridge, Galvatron sends the Decepticons to pursue with the intention of destroying both groups by collapsing the Space Bridge, not caring if any Predacon gets caught in the collapse, all so he could have the entire planet to himself.
edited 26th Feb '18 4:27:03 PM by xie323

So it appear that we need to evaluate the heinous standard for Jak and Daxter before we EP anyone there. So how long would it take to do so before we EP Kor and Erol, assuming they are heinous and irredeemable enough to qualify
edited 26th Feb '18 12:43:47 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff