During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ok then, I give up on Alexis/Alixus (Alixus is how imdb lists her...). I'm not familiar with DS 9 enough to argue that she is the worst and most heinous, and I don't actually have an opportunity to watch the episode any time soon. Though I don't think misogyny was the case why she was proclaimed a complete monster in the review of the "Paradise" episode.
I love Chuck, his reviews and his insight but don't forget: SF Debris is simply a viewer with an opinion.
As for Semyon from Eastern Promises... Actually...he doesn't seem a family man at all. He seems to dislike his son heavily and abuses him mentally and physically. And his illegitimate daughter? He has his son try to drown her
Insert Kevin Federline insult here: _______
@ACW: Read post 10974 on the previous page.
There are some Chuck examples I'd like to bring up:
- The Ring Director: Here's a list of his crimes: telling Shaw the truth of who really killed Shaw's wife, initiating Shaw's Face–Heel Turn, and helping Shaw try to kill Sarah for revenge. That's it. He's a standard baddie nothing more. Cut.
- Daniel Shaw: Of all the villains Shaw comes closest to qualifying because whenever he appears after his Face–Heel Turn, episodes get darker, his crimes are treated seriously, the show treats him like the only villain worthy of fear, and a lot of people are in danger of dying. That being said, he doesn't count because all of his evil actions are motivated by getting revenge on Sarah for killing his wife. No matter how bad he gets that love is always there. Plus, following his Face–Heel Turn I think his sanity is really questionable as he doesn't seem all there in the head anymore. Revenge is pretty much the only thing he cares about.
- Justin Sullivan: Cut. He poisons Capt. Awesome (nonlethally), manipulates Ellie and threatens to kill Casey's teenage daughter on his boss's orders. He's a standard minion and does nothing to set himself apart from the rest of the villains.
- Kirean Ryker: I never saw the episode but his entry is a Zero Context Example. All the info the wiki had on him is that he attempted to kidnap a baby (now grown up) so he could steal the girl's fortune. I seriously doubt this is heinous enough to count. Cut.
- Nicholas Quinn: Mind Rapes Sarah until she forgets everything that happened to her over the past few years, frames her husband, Chuck, for the murder of her ex-boyfriend Bryce, tries to get Sarah to kill Chuck, sets off a bomb in CIA headquarters to kill Chuck, Casey and Morgan (nobody gets hurt and there's no other agents around), and places a bomb under General Beckman's chair at a concert to get her to give him a MacGuffin he needs. Once he has it he leaves her and the rest of the people at the concert with the still active bomb which he made impossible to defuse. Okay, he's a bit worse than the standard Chuck baddie since he actually tries to kill a large number of people for no reason in his final appearance, that said, I'm not sure he's bad enough for the trope. He's never treated as seriously as Shaw is for example, and he does have an "excuse" in that Chuck inadvertently ruined his life and led to him being captured and tortured for over a year by enemy agents. I think he crosses the Moral Event Horizon at some point in the Grand Finale, but mostly I think he's kind of a standard villain who isn't bad enough for this trope.
In short, I don't think Chuck has any CMs.
edited 3rd Apr '13 1:02:42 PM by OccasionalExister
@Lighty: RE: Chuck and Trek. Yes. I'll remember that. (You made me smile.)
RE: Crime procedurals
- Bones:
- Howard Epps. We don't know exactly how many women he murdered, but we know of six. Add to that the fact that he manipulated Bones and her True Companions into stopping his execution, and then escaped prison by starting a fire and killing a fire-fighter, dressing in the man's uniform, and walking out, only to continue his twisted little mind games with Bones. He then shows up in her apartment, tries to kill her, and jumps from the balcony, killing himself by letting go of Booth's hand.
- The Gravedigger, who has this status of Complete Monster simply due to the way he (or she, as it would turn out) dispatches victims: burying them alive.
- There's also the cannibalistic serial killer Gormogon, who manages to be a Complete Monster even though he barely appears onscreen.
Its sub-page words it like this:
- Howard Epps.
- The one that inevitably first comes to mind is the Gravedigger, whose victims are buried alive. And we learn that their motive pretty much amounts to "because I can."
- The Gormogon. Dear God, the Gormogon!
- The first two (Epps, Gravedigger) could qualify. Gravedigger could use more context.
- I searched whether they were discussed before, and it appears that only the Gravedigger was, but the relevant post brings it up and one answer says they will get to that later. I've found nothing else on it.
- I'd cut Gormogon because it says he's an off-screen villain. But... it probably needs a fan familiar with him and the whole case.
RE: CSI
- The murderous couple: Mandy and Cameron Klinefeld. It occurred to me — might it be the case that their love redeems them? Though the example as it's written really makes me sick, so I think not.
edited 3rd Apr '13 1:09:42 PM by XFllo
@ 10969 (Lightysnake): Good argument. At the very least it demonstrates that they can choose. So the Djinn from the first film would qualify, the one from the fourth not, and as for the one from the third — I can't remember enough about that one to know if he did anything that would qualify him as a CM. I'm inclined to leave him out.
Now all it needs is a write-up for the first Djinn. Would be helpful to note in the example that he's the only who of his race who really qualifies, despite them all being Always Chaotic Evil.
@ 10976 (TV Rulez Again): He's just a Family-Values Villain for his public image. Behind closed doors he cares about no one, only power and lust.
RE: Armus from TNG — I'm not really sure if he has moral agency. Can someone comment?
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Re:Bones - I think Gormogon is a Well-Intentioned Extremist? He is a nutter who believes in the Illuminatti and his murders and stuff are supposed to somehow save the world from them or something something. I am not actually sure, but Gormogon convinced one of the main characters to help him by saying it was for a good cause and I do not think they ever indicated that Gormogon was intentionally lying about that, I am pretty sure he was just crazy.
RE: Armus (Star Trek: TNG): It's been a while since I saw that. I don't recall anything about moral agency, but there might have been something of a Freudian Excuse. He was left there on the planet by somebody - I don't recall by whom.
RE: Gormogon from Bones, @ willthiswork: Then he's out I guess.
edited 3rd Apr '13 3:08:37 PM by XFllo
I cut the tmnt examples since we all seemed to agree.
I also think I have a writeup for the first Djinn:
Complete Monster: While the Djinn are said to be Always Chaotic Evil, we only see three of them(since only the first two films share continuty, and the Djinn in the third film is killed at the end, it seems that the last two films feature completely different ones). From what we see, comparing all three Djins together, the one in the first two films is by far the worst of them all, and especially evil even for his race. In the oppening of the first film, when an emperor wishes to be shown wonders, the result is that horrible things start happening to his people(one man is shown having a monster made of his own intestines comming out of his stomach chestburster style and attacking a woman, while another man dies horribly has his skeliton comes to life, tears itself free of his skin, and begins attacking people). He later traps a woman in a painting for all eternity, and turns another woman into a sentant but imobile statue for all eternity. He blows up an airaplane and kills everyone on board just to kill one woman(after she willed all her money to her son in the event of her death and said son wished for the Djinn to give him a million dollars). In the second film, he apperently wanted to trap one thousand mortals in a plane of eternal suffering.
edited 3rd Apr '13 2:59:34 PM by bobg
jjj- Kaguro, despite Evil Is Cool.
- Jaren is also a nasty costumer, convincing Takehi's master into letting him kill his master and gloats that it was their desire, also gives Yoshimori a Breaking Speech that Masamori would make a better guardian that he does and gloats how he ate Takehi's master
According to the character page, Kaguro has standards:
- Even Evil Has Standards: Believe it or not. He kills off two of his surviving subordinates when they take Tokine hostage, Scolding them for their "lack of aesthetic".
- Peter looks to be just a murdering psychopath, until the story reveals all the people he killed were related to the murder of his family. Kate, however, crosses the line by burning down a house full of normal and innocent people just to get to some werewolves (which doesn't even kill a few of them.). Even Mr. Argent does a small Heel–Face Turn because of her actions violating the hunter's code.
- And in Season Two, her father Gerard is even worse. To him being evil is as natural as breathing.
No context for Gerard
On the Film page.
- Blood Diamond. The Revolutionary United Front commander Captain Poison embodies this trope. We first see him leading a raid on a peaceful village, slaughtering the inhabitants with the assistance of child soldiers and then chopping off the hands of the survivors except for a few they figure are strong enough to use for slave labor. Later at this camp, we see him catching one captive trying to pocket a diamond. He demands that he give it back, which he does, but then guns him down in cold blood anyway. Brutal brainwashing of captured children to become child soldiers follows. Anyone is going to want to cheer a lot when he is taken out.
- And the worst thing is that it's hinted that he was once upon a time a normal family man just like Solomon, but became evil because he "lived in hell", an Evil Counterpart of what Solomon could had turned into if he was the one leading RUF, and that he secretly hates what he does.
Notice the "secretly hates what he does".
Horrible entry on the Live-Action TV page:
- Leo Johnson from Twin Peaks, disregarding the very last episodes where he is frightened for Shelley's safety, because that's just plain stupid. He's a murderer, a rapist, a drug pusher, and a wife beater.
Also, on the YMMV page for the same show:
- Windom Earle. It's really something when his actions actually make you feel bad for Leo Johnson.
Doesn't say what his actions are.
RE two the examples,
With Kaguro, I'm not sure that "Scolding them for their "lack of aesthetic"." actually does indicate standards- it is more like a Do Wrong, Right/ Evil Is Stylish kind of reasoning. Does the character display actual standards?
With Captain Poison in Blood Diamond, I'm not sure how far you can take implied freudian excuses, but yeah, when he makes that comment about "acting like a demon because he lives in hell", the guy does sound very desperate as opposed to simply making excuses, and it is very visible in his behavior. Also, the film itself doesn't really seem to believe in complete monsters- it is more about how a terrible system/life can turn people into monsters.
edited 3rd Apr '13 3:18:40 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wikiTV rulez:
For Kekkaishi's example...a 'lack of aesthetic' doesn't imply moral standards. Just "you were sloppy" or "You lacked style". Not the same thing.
For Captain Poison, it's only implied he hates what he does, but he's still a gleeful monster onscreen.And secretly loathing yourself an continuing to be a CM doesn't strike me as very redeeming
Second write-up for the Djinn.
- The first Djinn from Wishmaster. We only see three members of his race (only the first two films share continuity, and the Djinn in the third film is killed at the end, so it seems that the last two films feature completely different ones). Comparing them together, the one in the first two films is by far the worst of them all, and especially evil even for his race. He sees people as nothing but vermin and toys for his sick amusement. Most of the wishes he grants result in people dying horrific Body Horror-related deaths. He blows up an airplane and kills everyone on board just to kill one woman. Every soul he reaps he places in a hell-like dimension for eternal torture. In the second film, he sets out to trap one thousand mortals in this plane of eternal suffering. And his ultimate goal is to turn the Earth into a place of perpetual death, destruction, pain, and fear by releasing his fellow Djinn.
edited 3rd Apr '13 6:31:01 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Re Poison,
It has been a while since I've seen it, but I also seem to remember some basically Black-and-Black Morality going on in that Poison is a terrible person recruiting (read brainwashing)child soldiers to take down a horrible dictator. Poison is opposed by some white Private Military Contractors who are only in it for the money and are pretty evil, although if Dicaprio's character is illustrative, may have an excuse in being victims of atrocities committed by anti-colonial forces.
I'm not really sure who stands out as being the worst here. Its kind of an Inherent in the System kind of thing. Poison is arguably the worst, although as I noted, iirc, he's fighting against a horrible dictator (who iirc is mostly off-screen).
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki![]()
While on the subject of Blood Diamond the YMMV page lists both Poison and Colonel Coetzee. No idea if either of 'em count, not having seen the film, but I thought those of you discussing it should know.
Raw animalistic sex? You know there's a porno out there somewhere with that title, right?
edited 3rd Apr '13 3:34:43 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I saw the spider from Cobweb Hotel listed on Color Classics and removed it, but it also has this:
EDIT:
Eastern Promises
Loved ones. Cut.
edited 3rd Apr '13 12:22:41 PM by TVRulezAgain