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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#109951: Feb 23rd 2018 at 9:48:13 AM

[up][up]What do you mean by Father having insufficient heniousness. He has a body count in millions.

edited 23rd Feb '18 9:49:26 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#109952: Feb 23rd 2018 at 9:50:53 AM

The ONLY thing is "hen New Japan needs to discharge exhaust? Father has it blast the earth, in populated areas to vaporize them completely....and has done so for centuries, viewing those on earth with contempt."

But that's not even mitigating; it doesn't seem like Father 't even TRIED to find less-murderous ways to discharge exhaust.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#109953: Feb 23rd 2018 at 9:54:52 AM

...how the hell is Father not heinous enough? Horrific dystopia, destroying thousands of his own citizens, the brothels, having one ignore the most concentrated, evil rapsheets in the setting just short of Darque himself?

edited 23rd Feb '18 9:59:37 AM by Scraggle

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#109954: Feb 23rd 2018 at 10:00:09 AM

Hundreds of thousands, even. Plus the general dickishness.

BTW, since they both got enough votes, I'll hopefully writeup both Strucker and Nadir tomorrow.

edited 23rd Feb '18 10:11:17 AM by ACW

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#109956: Feb 23rd 2018 at 10:25:26 AM

Yeah, there's even a scene where Father asks about how many living beings are in one sector (about 200K), then asks about another sector (over 300K)...he says to eject the latter sector because it'll give him more energy to devote to Rai. I can see arguing Father's issues with his claims of protecting New Japan and the people, but heinousness is far from an issue.

edited 23rd Feb '18 10:25:57 AM by Lightysnake

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#109957: Feb 23rd 2018 at 10:27:39 AM

[tdown] Dark Meta Knight.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#109958: Feb 23rd 2018 at 10:28:47 AM

[tup]Father.

Why so serious?
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#109959: Feb 23rd 2018 at 10:29:42 AM

On an unrelated note. It seems Father is just one of those names like Amon, Mason and Wiseman where there quite a few villains we have listed with it for some reason.

edited 23rd Feb '18 10:30:04 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#109960: Feb 23rd 2018 at 11:32:10 AM

[up] Don't forget The Master.

It's Spooky Month!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#109961: Feb 23rd 2018 at 11:44:43 AM

Also, this line is unbelievably awkward on Monster.Fullmetal Alchemist

"The manga version of Father lacks the Alas, Poor Villain moment of his Brotherhood counterpart. "

Please cut it. It makes the entry awkward and we shouldn't have to qualify this.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#109962: Feb 23rd 2018 at 11:47:29 AM

So just make it "The manga version of Father is a..."?

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#109963: Feb 23rd 2018 at 11:51:38 AM

That seems like a pretty important line since it shows why only the manga and not anime version of the character counts. There may be a way to make it look less awkward, but we should keep the general meaning.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#109964: Feb 23rd 2018 at 11:52:09 AM

Yeah light's manga write-up doesn't mention why his anime incarnation doesn't qualify, so I think Father's doesnt need to mention it as well.

edited 23rd Feb '18 11:53:54 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
#109965: Feb 23rd 2018 at 12:04:39 PM

Wow, you guys sure do like to gang up on someone for a dissenting opinion. It’s not even like his thumbs down would’ve effected anything.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#109966: Feb 23rd 2018 at 12:12:01 PM

Allright we seem to have hit a snag with Monster devilman. So please come to this thread to help : Monster.Devilman

Also for anyone curious were also havng discussions in these threads. So please come as your help is appreciated: Monster.24, Monster.A Song Of fire and ice, Monster. web Originial and The X files

edited 23rd Feb '18 12:12:37 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#109967: Feb 23rd 2018 at 12:12:42 PM

I'm not sure what to do with Father. Maybe just make it "Father (manga iteration only) is a...", but that still seems somewhat janky.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#109968: Feb 23rd 2018 at 12:15:31 PM

The manga is the original version. Just put 'Father' without qualifiers.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#109969: Feb 23rd 2018 at 12:19:53 PM

So, like this then?

Father is a being from beyond the Gate given form in a small flask and named Homunculus by the nameless slave who would become van Hohenheim in the Xerxes empire. Desiring to escape the flask, Homunculus would trick the king of Xerxes into a ritual that slaughtered multiple people to initiate an alchemy ritual that killed everyone in Xerxes and split their souls between Hohenheim and Homunculus, to the latter's horror. Later founding the nation of Amestris and creating the Homunculi, he took the name of "Father", guiding Amestris to become a military dictatorship that initiated military conflicts to provide bloodshed for an even greater ritual, including the genocide of the Ishvalan people. Intending to kill and steal the souls of tens of millions so that he could devour God, or Truth itself, Father demonstrates cold sadism when he faces Hohenheim and his children again, mentally torturing them as he also abandons or tries to absorb his own Homunculi children. While he sees himself as an existence above humans, this is simply a reflection of Father's arrogance and pride, desiring to ascend ever higher, no matter who or what he has to destroy to gain ultimate knowledge and power.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#109970: Feb 23rd 2018 at 12:28:22 PM

[up] That looks fine

Wow Lighty a lot of your qualifiers really have the nameFather in their title?

[tdown] to DMK

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
DocJamore Since: Jul, 2014
#109971: Feb 23rd 2018 at 1:56:52 PM

[tdown]

No to changing the Father definition. There NEEDS to be an indention that the anime version dosen't count otherwise we are sending the wrong idea.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#109972: Feb 23rd 2018 at 1:58:46 PM

Then just say the Big Bad of the *whatever year* manga, but adding the lack of something from a later adaptation is, IMO, unnecessary

DocJamore Since: Jul, 2014
#109973: Feb 23rd 2018 at 2:02:19 PM

The page is split into the 2003 version and the manga and brotherhood version. The latter two on the page are just lumped together. Spit the page up into three sections for each adaptation if you want but do not send the impression that the Brotherhood version counts because his Alas, Poor Villain moment in the anime disqualifies that version.

edited 23rd Feb '18 2:10:30 PM by DocJamore

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#109974: Feb 23rd 2018 at 2:10:20 PM

I honestly would be fine splitting it up into 3. I mean, Shou Tucker also seems like it's the manga version ("only one chapter"). I'm not sure about the Doctor or Atlas.

EDIT: Or just remove the mention of Brotherhood (unless Doc Goldtooth does something unique there) and move Atlas to a third category.

edited 23rd Feb '18 2:17:53 PM by ACW

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#109975: Feb 23rd 2018 at 2:23:57 PM

I'm personally not sold on Hoenheim's pity for Father disqualifying him from Brotherhood and to me his blurb about just wanting to be free can't really be taken as anything but just trying to save himself. As has been pointed out about him, Father can talk a big game about morality but when push comes to shove, he's just power hungry. Furthermore, how big of a divide did we have on just putting up the manga version, I remember Doc being adverse to including Brotherhood!Father but was anyone else?


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