During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Wright.
So, after effort-posting Morax, I found out Empress is a Marvel work. Would that mean he has to be held to the standards of the rest of the Marvel Universe?
Why so serious?
I think we're fine. Unless it's canocailly in 616. Then as a alternate universe shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Zash, Sadiq, Morax, Khan and Wright
edited 19th Feb '18 8:06:46 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
All recent candidates except for Reileen and Matsuhiroto.
So... Funny Games, hated by some, loved by many.
What is the setting? Funny Games is a somewhat artsy flick dedicated on exploring violence and how does it affect those who watch it. The Farbers and their dog: George, Ann, Georgie and Lucky, go to a lake house to find some peace, but unfortunately for the family, two serial killers are desperate to play some "funny games" with new victims. I present you, Paul and Peter.
Who are Paul and Peter? Paul and Peter are two young men (implied to be college freshmen) who really like to invade homes and have some "fun" with the residents, in their own sadistic way. The duo are introduced in the company of Fred, the next door neighbor. Ann notices that Fred is acting kinda odd but she doesn't think too much about it. Peter comes to Ann asking for eggs, he breaks them and drops Ann's cellphone in the sink, obviously angering her. Paul arrives and asks to try out a golf club outside, killing Lucky with it. At the house, George tries to kick out both of them, and slaps Paul in the face when he intimidates him, Peter then picks up the golf club and breaks his leg. Outside, Paul plays hunt the thimble with Ann, using Lucky's body as the thimble. Returning to the house, Paul asks the Farbers if they bet that they will be alive by 9:00 AM, they unwillingly accept, and Paul says that he and Peter are betting otherwise. Paul and Peter play "Cat in the Bag" with Georgie, suffocating the boy with a pillowcase and stopping only if Ann takes off her clothes. Georgie escapes and goes to Fred's house, discovering that he has been killed, along with his wife. Paul drags the boy back to the house and instructs Peter to play another game where the loser gets shot with a shotgun while he goes to have snack. Peter shots Georgie, splattering his blood over the wall, and Paul scolds him for it, not for killing a child in the front of their parents, but because he did not care about "timing". Paul and Peter leave the house to give George and Ann a sense of hope, letting her escape, just to capture her again. Paul forces Ann to recite a prayer, and when she finishes it after much struggle, he tells her to recite it backwards. Later, Paul asks Ann if she wants her husband to have a slow and excruciating death with a knife, or a fast and "almost painless" death with the shotgun, explaining that "losing your life can sometimes be fun", and stabbing George when she fails to give an answer. Ann takes the shotgun and kills Peter, only for Paul to literally grab a remote and rewind time, now taking the shotgun and killing George to punish her for "breaking the rules". Paul and Peter bound Ann and take her to the family boat. At around 8:00 AM, Paul throws Ann off the boat to drown, Peter asks why Paul killed her since they had an hour left to win the bet, his response? "It's too difficult to sail like this, first of all. Second of all... i'm gettind kinda of hungry". The film ends with Paul going to another house nearby... asking for some eggs.
Heinous? These guys are absolutely remorseless, and the scariest part is that we don't really know for sure how many times they did this to other families. Not only do they like to act nice before striking, they take far more pleasure in crushing their victims with mental torture, their favorite type of game, rather than killing.
Excuses? Paul and Peter give multiple, and contradicting explanations to their motives, from Peter's mom being a prostitute to drug addiction, all of which are lies to mess with the Farbers even more. They themselves admit to have no reason for doing what they do, when Ann asks why they are tormenting them, Peter replies with "why not?"
Conclusion? Can i borrow your eggs?
edited 19th Feb '18 8:42:22 PM by TheMadCr0w
Do Peter and Paul show any care for each other?
I have a cut to submit: The Funny Man from Funny Man. I just watched the film, and he's more Played for Laughs than Laughably Evil. He breaks the fourth wall with wisecracks (including not knowing what he's on about when doing a hippie impression), his kills are more goofy than even Fteddy Krueger got at his worst (including shooting a woman's brain out and it coming out intact with eyes and all), a reasonably lengthy scene where he does a drag routine/mock striptease and burstkng out of a woman while circus music plays not because it's a circus scene, but just because.
I'll...give a tentative yea to Pete and Paul and a cut to Funny Man then.
Now...Clown Face has generously agreed to let me tackle this one, due to our differing opinions on the keeping.
What's the Work?
Gotham by Gaslight...it's Gotham City. Except in the 1800s, the turn of the century. Gotham? Is a corrupt, crime-ridden cesspool. The public officials are corrupt, crime is rampant, children are homeless and forced into a life of crime to eat, women turn to prostitution in desperation...oh, and a masked vigilante dressed as a bat is stalking the streets. Is he a hero or villain? Well, wealthy socialite Bruce Wayne has no time for that stuff. But...a darker figure has taken to Gotham's streets, targeting prostitutes....a huge, left-handed beast of a man known as...Jack the Ripper.
Who is Jack and what's he do?
Jack opens the film running into exotic dance and sometimes prostitute Ivy in the streets. Propositioning a potential customer, Ivy is horrified when the Ripper draws a knife and gruesomely murders her as he has other women before and after. The murders continue...night after night.
Selina Kyle, an actress and dancer who helps to guard the women of the poor neighborhood Skinner's End, is furious at Police Commissioner Gordon and chief Bullock for not protecting the women of Gotham. Selina, a capable thief and fighter, uses herself as bait to lure in the Ripper...Btman intervenes to save her, but the Ripper flees. Now, Batman puts things together...when he was young, Bruce was taken in by Sister Leslie and her charity house...and many of the women murdered were orphans formerly under Leslie's care. Batman goes to Gordon to share his findings....unfortunately, the Ripper catches on to Sister Leslie. Confronting her, Leslie calmly informs him she will not beg, or die in hysterics...it matters nothing to Jack who gruesomely murders her as well, a distraught Bruce finding her body. A drunk old woman named Marlene sees Bruce there and decides to blackmail him for her silence, believing him the Ripper.
At Leslie's funeral, Dr. Hugo Strange of Arkham, a doctor with...questionable methods informs Bruce he may have the mystery solved. The Ripper? pays Dr. Strange a visit, who's sure he knows all Jack's compulsions. Only to be proven horribly, tragically wrong as Jack hauls off Strange and throws him to the asylum madmen who literally rip him apart, Batman arriving too late to save Strange. A fight ensues as Batman pursues the Ripper, only for Jack to escape again.
Bruce and Selina become closer, knowing one another's secrets now...unfortunately, Jack has realized Bruce Wayne is a threat. He murders Marlene and frames Bruce Wayne, who is arrested by Gordon and the cops, and sent to quite possibly hang for the crime. Selina visits him in prison and begs him to reveal he's Batman to establish his alibi. Bruce is reluctant, but Selina is adamant, knowing that every second Bruce is in jail and Jack slips under the radar is another second the women are in danger. Selina then goes to inform Gordon before it's too late. Bruce manages to get out of jail and heads to Gordon's house to head Selina off, where he's met by Gordon's wife Barbara (Barbara is the name of Gordon's wife in the comics as well as their daughter, so no creepy adaptational incest stuff, guys)...and finds...Gordon's secret room. With...organs floating in jars. And pictures. And newspaper clippings and... James Gordon is the Ripper.
And dear Barbara? Well, he never hurts her and the kids like he does other women, oh, no...no, she says as her hair slips away to reveal hideous burn scars all over the left side of her face. Dear Jim only burns the sin out of them. A horrified Batman flees to intercept Gordon...as Selina, unaware of the danger, is drugged by Gordon who lays into her with a misogynist rant which I reprint here:
"Wayne promised this world's fair would be a paradise of cleanliness and light. But what does a light in the darkness do? It draws flies. Vile, unclean. Like YOU. But for every one of you I eradicate, two more arrive. I promised the people of Gotham to clean the scum off the streets. Thieves, murderers, confidence men, immigrants, illiterates, anarchists. This city seems to spawn them. But it's WHORES, you painted whores, that are the worst. All rosy cheeked, soft, and round on the outside. But on the inside..."
A drugged Selina desperately flees, stalked by the sadistic, mocking Gordon as he rants at her. Bruce finally arrives and it is on. Gordon reveals more of his motives and hatred to Bruce as the two fight, with the place catching fire around them. Unfortunately, Bruce is outmatched. Jim is bigger, stronger and a champion boxer...Bruce is forced to rely on his wits with some help from Selina, ending as he handcuffs Gordon to a railing. Unwilling to face justice? Gordon steps back into the flames willingly, laughing and screaming as he is consumed in fire, ending the mad spree of Jack the Ripper.
Heinousness?
Jack/Gordon is the only villain here, and oh god does he set it. a ton of murders here, gruesome and violent as you'd expect. How he kills Hugo Strange sticks out, along with his brutal murder of Leslie. Plus torturing his wife and kids.
....Oh, and Harvey Dent is a smug, sexist asshole who demeans Selina as a whore, betrays Bruce out of jealousy and is fully willing to send him to the gallows for Selina falling for Bruce over him. Not a supervillain but oh my GOD what a Hate Sink.
Mitigating Quality?
Okay, so...first thing? Jack's good intentions are a fucking farce. Everything about 'cleaning' Gotham is a complete and utter cover for his insane misogyny. Literally nearly everything he says after the exposure is a rant against women, calling them whores, harlots and more. He also mentions his hatred of immigrants...and from that rant above, he's going to target anyone who doesn't match his standard. Oh, and he very clearly enjoys his work. Big time.
Even then, he goes out of his normal purview at times. Leslie is a nun which is...sort of the opposite of a prostitute. James dismisses her as 'that slut of a nun', he frames Bruce Wayne, a man trying to help Gotham, and kills Hugo Strange who, while creepy, is just trying to do good with the knowledge of the times.
The main issues to discuss? Jim was in the Civil War and it clearly affected him. When he brags about his prowess as a boxer, Batman calmly states there were no rules at Antietam, to which James retorts "there are no rules in Hell" and how he saw men destroyed....but then he lays more blame on the camp followers and prostitutes, spreading their 'disease,' so he was a misogynist well before that. I'm not inclined to see this as mitigating at all here, as he's still a brutal sadist and not really a Shell-Shocked Veteran...he keeps trophies and clippings of his murders, implying how proud he is of them. The only other thing? James is left-handed and he comments that when he was a boy at school, the nuns "beat that wickedness" out of him (left-handedness being a bad sign back in the day)...but he still uses that left hand "for Jack's work!" No issues here, I think.
Lastly...his wife, Barbara. Early in the film, Jim has a nightmare of his wife stalked and murdered by the Ripper, only to walk up and put an arm around her when he finds her safe and cooking in the kitchen...she mentions their kids, but Gordon himself never does one way or the other...however...I feel this takes a much darker twist with The Reveal of Jim as the Ripper and some later dialogue. First off? Jim has tortured his wife into insanity, regularly burning her face (and possibly more) to the point she's broken and believe she deserves the torture. And when Batman coldly confronts Jim on what he's done to his wife, Jim retorts that "wives are the worst whores of all! They sell themselves too cheap!" ...with this in mind? The dream of the Ripper murdering Barbara takes on a darker cast: Jim wants to kill her, but states that his house is a 'refuge' for him...in other words, he's relieved he didn't do it because of the suspicion that didn't fall on him. His dialogue reveals he loathes Barbara as much as other women, so I'm not inclined to see any mitigating qualities.
Conclusion?
I think James "The Ripper" Gordon...fits the criteria. He's a more complex monster and an utterly terrifying one when the reveal happens. Overall, though, he's a vicious, misogynist psychopath, a remorseless hypocrite, murderer and butcher who has no compunction breaking his supposed code and glorying in the murders he commits.
I say keep the bastard.
to the twelve billionth version of Jackie Boy.
Also, is this the first time Gordon's been portrayed as a villain? Quite a surprising case of Adaptational Villainy.
edited 19th Feb '18 10:04:03 PM by therealjackieboy
It's Spooky Month!
Gordon and God
@Demon Duck: Peter and Paul don't show any genuine care for one another. The closest part is when Peter gets killed, and Paul angrily grabs the TV remote and rewinds the movie itself to bring Peter back and stop him from getting killed. However, it's not really a caring moment, more that the victims broke the rules and impeded their fun.
edited 19th Feb '18 11:14:56 PM by rosewood47
To James Gordon. Wow guess there’s a first time for everything.
I guess I can also give a
to Peter and Paul
Leaning
to Paul and Peter unless it's clarified that they don't care for each other.
Unfortunately after long reflection as much as I liked the film and how awful Jack is, I'm going to give a VERY reluctant "No". I think action speaks louder than words and the scene where he wakes up from the nightmare shows that he has some care abut Barbara even if he treated her horribly. That scene happens in private at their home and there's no reason why James would fake his concern over losing her. Yes, it's jarring that he calls her later a whore but I don't think it invalidating. I wouldn't mind if he gets voted up.
Here is new Monster.A Song of Ice and Fire image pickin' thread.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1518827407037667700&page=1#12
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Didnt he torture her into insanity and burn her face off though. Like saying he cares about her would be a stretch if you add on the fact he calls her a whore.
edited 19th Feb '18 11:55:13 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I say that James Gordon caring about Barbara is supposed to be a Red Herring to throw us off the scent that Gordon could possibly be the Ripper. We all know that the main James Gordon would never be as vile and horrible as Jack the Ripper. So if this Gordon acts like his mainstream counterpart, it makes the twist of him being the Ripper all the more surprising.
And really, Gordon would likely care about Barbara the same way a villain would care about his trophy wife. He doesn't want to kill her, but he's perfectly fine with disfiguring her and drive her mad. Gordon in the best light according to this movie is a Knight Templar and that wouldn't disqualify a CM. Keep in mind, in the best light. At his worst light, he's looking for an excuse to kill people.
Alright, catching up....
'Yes' to Gordon. I see absolutely zero indication that he cares for his wife, the fact that he tortured and horribly broke her coupled with outright mocking her overwriting any sort of "care" that could be perceived from the nightmare sequence, which I just took with The Reveal as him being scared of killing his wife and ousting himself. The fact that it almost assuredly was SOLELY a plot device by the writers to make Gordon less of a suspect notwithstanding.
Paul and Peter....gah, really don't like that film. Honestly gonna abstain for the sheer absurdity of the work. It's not Torture Porn enough to be qualified as grimdark schlock, but stuff like scenes literally getting rewinded with no explanation makes the whole thing way too ridiculous and hard for me to take seriously, which is the exact reason I never proposed them myself.
'Yes' to Preacher!God. Tried to read through Preacher to potentially propose him myself, but honestly could NOT get past Ennis' form of writing. The man is a genius with stuff like Punisher: MAX, but my GAWD he can be a juvenile loon when he wants to.
Finally, I'm....waiting on the Funny Man until 43110 can give possible counterarguments. He, I believe, was the original proposer, and he's got a pretty solid track record, so I'd like to wait and see if he has anything to say about the Funny Man before throwing in an actual vote.
edited 20th Feb '18 12:18:17 AM by Ravok
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!So how about this quote from Angelus.
edited 20th Feb '18 12:42:56 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

to Mr Wright
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."