TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#10901: Apr 1st 2013 at 9:00:32 PM

Flashman was pretty sadisitic originally (still kind of is in his own series). But yeah, I think actually attempting and committing murder is pretty heinous in itself and beyond what the stock character type usually does.

With the French guy, he also seems a pretty stock evil aristocrat in terms of his general prejudices/priorities, but committing all those murders is unusually heinous (while my politics are on the side of the revolutionaries, it does kind of sound like he wanted to give the peasants a taste of the Revolution- i.e. the use of the guilotine- but that really just makes him a Knight Templar, not a Well-Intentioned Extremist).

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
SuperSaiyaMan Since: Jun, 2009
#10902: Apr 1st 2013 at 9:31:37 PM

I have to wonder...in The Walking Dead with the Governor's actions in the final episode of the season, should he be reevaluated to qualify as a Complete Monster like his Comic Book Counterpart?

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#10903: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:16:56 AM

Show!Governor genuinely loved his daughter, even after she turned into a zombie, enough so that her being killed by Michonne pretty much made him taking a flying leap over the Moral Event Horizon.

In general, no matter how nasty someone has been, having genuine love for another is enough to disqualify them for CM status. There isn't a "99% monster" trope (which would be horribly abused), but if there was I think he'd qualify.

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:28:30 AM by Nohbody

All your safe space are belong to Trump
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10904: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:19:04 AM

Given the complete lack of opposition to his inclusion, I've added Seidel Rasso to the Gundam subpage (and cut Bloodman from the YMMV page for Gundam X). I've also fixed some formatting issues, and added a few crimes that were missing from Azrael and Djibril's entries. Seeing as the next series won't be due for a few years, I think the page is ready for locking. If some other tropers could look the page over though, for formatting issues, spelling and grammar, coherency, factual correctness, style etc, though, that'd be great. Here's the link: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Monster/Gundam

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#10905: Apr 2nd 2013 at 3:11:54 AM

Okay, weird example I need an opinion on.

Lord Dyran from The Elvenbane. He's completely ruthless, to the point of Offing the Offspring the moment that they become inconvenient, and his Sex Slave ran away to her death because she feared he'd kill her because her contraception was sabotaged by a rival (breeding halfbloods is a capital crime). Now, he's also probably the Most Triumphant Example of Pragmatic Villainy, but because of this, literally any apparently moral action he does (allowing slaves and lower-class elves to gain status and power in exchange for good service, avoiding unproductive misogyny, et cetera) is not a redeeming quality, just a sign of his ruthlessness.

Do the latter "virtuous" qualities disqualify him from Complete Monster status?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#10906: Apr 2nd 2013 at 4:26:19 AM

  • [up] Depends on the motive.
  • The Queen And Country guy may need a more detailed write-up, but I'm inclined to vote [tup]
  • Same for Big D. This thing reminds me of the discussion we had about Angelus from Buffy. I wasn't sure if he counted due to not having a soul (moral agency) and was reminded/convinced that he does because he was more sadistic and cruel than other vampires. So, not having played the game(s), I'm inclined to vote [tup]

edited 2nd Apr '13 4:26:47 AM by ACW

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#10907: Apr 2nd 2013 at 7:53:31 AM

So 3 yes for Diablo. Anyone else want to weigh in on this? It's the Morgoth debate all over again so I expect the same outcome.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10908: Apr 2nd 2013 at 8:19:12 AM

[up][up]I would also be reminded of our discussions of Bleach. Eating people might be what Hollows do, but sadistically torturing them is unnecessary. Hence why Shreiker and Sayzel count, while other Hollows/Arrancar do not.

As to the specific example, what does Diablo do that other Demons/evil beings in his setting do not? I've never played, so I'm not really in a position to comment, and much of lightysnake and Fighteer's debate on the subject was from the perspective of people with prior knowledge.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10910: Apr 2nd 2013 at 8:56:43 AM

"what does Diablo do that other Demons/evil beings in his setting do not?"

Diablo's evil is more a matter of degree than of kind. He's the Big Bad of the series and so he's always reaching for higher goals than his "brothers". Given the nature of demons in general, it may be more a case of power granting opportunity than the reverse. He does seem to have concocted the most successful gambit of all of them, given that it got all of the other Evils destroyed and their power transferred to him. But it's not clear that he's inherently any more evil than they are.

edited 2nd Apr '13 8:58:18 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Elbruno Mummy Woomy from Chile: Not As Dry As Space! Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Mummy Woomy
#10911: Apr 2nd 2013 at 9:31:42 AM

Xenoblade Chronicles has two yet undiscussed examples in its YMMV section. I'll say it now, both of them are Walking Spoilers, so this could be a bit problematic. I'll start with the less spoilerific one:

Mumkar starts off as a Dirty Coward who leaves his partners five minutes into the story during a decisive war to save his own skin and then steal the legendary Monado from them; he gets killed by an army of Mechon immediately. Some Unwilling Roboticisation later, he becomes Metal Face, a face Mechon.

Unlike others of his kind, he's neither brainwashed nor under control of someone else, but that doesn't stop him from attacking the place that used to be his home nor enjoy the killing. He loves to rub the wrongs he's done to the heroes on their face, and takes every chance he gets to further hurt them, even if they go against his Well-Intentioned Extremist leader's orders.

The only redeeming quality I could see in him is the fact that his partner Dunban used to call him a friend, but then again Dunban isn't the most Genre Savvy guy in the lot, and it's implied that Mumkar used to be an asshole even before this whole mess started.

edited 2nd Apr '13 9:32:12 AM by Elbruno

"Yeah, it's a shame. Here we are in an underground cave with all these lasers, and instead of having a rave we're using it for evil."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10912: Apr 2nd 2013 at 10:55:54 AM

Well, as far as Diablo goes...Baal clearly held loyalty to his brothers while Diablo used them as a means to an end. Diablo is also a figure most other demons are terrified of and his realm of Terror is one very few ever enter willingly.

For Lord Dyran...from reading the page, it seems his nobility is pure pragmatism. In that case, I'd be inclined to vote for him with a good writeup

For Xenoblade...love the game,know both examples and I think they're both keepers

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#10913: Apr 2nd 2013 at 10:57:15 AM

I am willing to give Diablo a [tup], but Lighty, you really should try and avoid debating an example incessantly.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#10914: Apr 2nd 2013 at 10:59:20 AM

[up]I think he was responding to my question about what Diablo had done, not reviving the debate.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10915: Apr 2nd 2013 at 11:18:44 AM

If Baal was voluntarily aiding his brothers instead of trying to backstab them, that marks him as somewhat atypical of the Great Evils. It's stated outright that the only reason they hadn't overwhelmed the High Heavens already was that they were always betraying each other. Diablo, in becoming the Prime Evil, overcame that problem.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10916: Apr 2nd 2013 at 11:36:48 AM

Actually while they did compete Baal is very upset when they die. Not to mention how they wrk in conjunction after the soulstone fiascos. Plus they had four lesser evils to rein in all the time. Big difference to plotting and actually wanting your bros dead

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#10917: Apr 2nd 2013 at 12:24:15 PM

Strange Journey update: I'm at the very end of the game now (have just beaten the second-to-last boss) and bar any last-minute twists I can safely say neither Lucifer nor the Wise Men qualify as both are Well Intentioned Extremists. A bit of backstory is necessary here. In the future, man's inhumanity to the environment has caused a black hole called the Schwartzwelt to begin to engulf the planet. The different sides have different ways of getting rid of it and making sure it never happens again: the Wise Men want to brainwash the population into compliance, and Lucifer wants to essentially revert society to a primitive, at-one-with-nature state.

So with neither of them qualifying, that leaves Captain Jack, on whom I'm voting yes. His right hand, Lieutenant Ryan, also probably would qualify if he did anything onscreen.

edited 2nd Apr '13 12:26:02 PM by HamburgerTime

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#10918: Apr 2nd 2013 at 1:03:22 PM

I thought of one last Wolverine-Villain to qualify: What about Tomi Shishido aka the Gorgon? First he was the leader of a mutant-terrorist group, then he killed his whole family in order to join the Hand, where he killed his master. His most heinous act was coordinating the brainwashing of Wolverine into a servant of HYDRA, after which he sent him on a killing spree, murdering dozens of innocents, the Hornet and Northstar among them.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10919: Apr 2nd 2013 at 1:05:19 PM

Actually...The Gorgon is an excellent example of this trope, especially from Secret Warriors. He's a monstrous, amoral sociopath with an enormous bodycount and gets progressively worse as he gets stronger.

Shishido also masterminded a bunch of HYDRA plots, murdered Phobos, and has this creepy hobby where he turns innocent girls into stone for decorations

edited 2nd Apr '13 1:06:08 PM by Lightysnake

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#10920: Apr 2nd 2013 at 1:12:46 PM

RE: Hornblower: My second write up of the French Jerk Moncoutant:

  • "The Frogs and the Lobsters": Colonel Marquis Moncoutant is one of the leaders of French Royalist troops who set on a mission to restore the monarchy in France during the French Revolution with the help of the British Navy. However, he doesn't care much about the cause and not at all about his soldiers. The fate of other aristocrats doesn't concern him either, but he's very proud that he's Blue Blood and he believes that common people are impossible to improve, comparing them to animals. He killed a mayor and nearly shot a child for singing Marseillaise upon his arrival to his village, and later he keeps gleefully killing off villagers with his personal guillotine one after another for no bigger offence than selling old bread. He never shows any remorse for his evil deeds.

I omitted the Narm and Narm Charm. Hope it's not "cheating". I also omitted Kill the Poor trope as I'm not sure it fits. He keeps killing them off just because he can, though he would prefer if they worshipped him and served him. I simply don't get the feeling that he would want to EX-TER-MI-NATE all the poor.

Gee, I feel I badly need another fan to help me on this one. Any feedback welcome.

edited 2nd Apr '13 1:15:15 PM by XFllo

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#10921: Apr 2nd 2013 at 1:21:19 PM

Attempted Write-Up.

  • From Wolverine's personal Rogues Gallery, there is Tomi Shishido, the Gorgon, who fully lives up to his name by turning people into living statues, especially girls, which are used for dekoration. His villainous career started very early, when he founded the Dawn of the White Light, a mutant surpremacy group which put even the Brotherhood to shame. At the age of 18, he slaughtered his entire family in order to prove himself worthy of joining the Hand. His by far most heinous act was when he brainwashed Wolverine into a servant of HYDRA and sent him on a brutal killing spree, which caused several dozen innocent deaths, among them the Hornet and Northstar, which haunts Logan to the present day. He also has absolutely no problems with killing children, which he showed when murdering Phobos.

edited 2nd Apr '13 6:08:32 PM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10922: Apr 2nd 2013 at 1:26:10 PM

I think the current Moncounant writeup is a vast improvement...not a bad one for the Gorgon either.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#10923: Apr 2nd 2013 at 1:28:56 PM

Does the Queen and Country example belong in the comics section or the literature section.

edited 2nd Apr '13 1:31:05 PM by randomtroper89

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#10925: Apr 2nd 2013 at 2:24:09 PM

Re: Gorgon. Small nitpicks about the description — I would leave also from there is also... at the beginning as the examples should not be compared to each other. And is dekoration a stylistic choice for the game, or just a typo? (I am this nit-picky because these are examples for locked pages.)

edited 2nd Apr '13 4:37:32 PM by XFllo


Total posts: 326,048
Top