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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#108826: Feb 12th 2018 at 8:02:19 PM

Abstain on Amon for the moment.

Anyways, got another candidate, this one from Arhian: Head Huntress, by Arahom Radjah and Ben Bishop. This five-issue comic centers around the titular bounty huntress, a drifter who chases after scum and villains, of which there is no shortage of.

Let's discuss the worst of them.

Who Is Grannark? What Does He Do?

"The Dark Lord", Grannark is the scarred, hulking ruler of Thaldoom, known better as the "City of Horrors". Grannark's kingdom definitely lives up to this title, with Grannark being the head of a clan of death-worshipers whose battle cry is "Death is God!" Corpses are mounted on pikes at the kingdom's entrance, and Grannark himself sits atop a throne adorned with decapitated heads. Indeed, people are butchered so often in the kingdom that the citizens casually discuss the methods of which they'll be killed, with one woman noting that "with Grannark's horde, there's a wide selection."

Grannark himself is introduced chopping off the head of a prisoner with his battleaxe while roaring "Death to the weak!", proudly displaying the detached head to the crowd. During this time, Grannark has ordered numerous virgins captured for a Human Sacrifice that takes place every twenty years. On this occasion, however, Grannark is particularly interested in one captured girl, Gina, whose mother was a healer. Believing her to be a healer, Grannark intends to kill her in a ritual to his "Death God" with the hopes of stealing her powers for himself.

When Arhian enters his kingdom to free Gina, she is promptly captured by Grannark, who expresses a desire to cut open her chest and rip out her heart. However, Arhian proves stronger than he anticipated, and she subdues him before initiating a prison break, releasing all the captured virgins. This leaves Grannark infuriated, and he pursues Arhian to enact his revenge. Later capturing the surviving members of Arhian's pirate crew after a failed mutiny, Grannark learns from them that she is heading to Mazkaran, home of the Amazons. He promptly has the men killed and sets sail to Mazkaran, fully intending on slaughtering everyone there. On the way, he breaks the neck of his cabin boy for accidentally spilling a drink on him. Prick.

Arriving on Mazkaran, Grannark initiates a bloody slaughter between his men and the Amazons. Initially overpowering the Amazons, Grannark and his men are defeated by the arrival of Arhian's massive gorilla, who slaughters his men. As per Amazon honor code, Arhian faces Grannark in a trial by combat duel. Though he initially overwhelms Arhian, Grannark makes the mistake of pausing to taunt a seemingly-helpless Arhian, thus giving her the opportunity to drive her knife into his throat and decapitate him.

Mitigating factors?

Heck no. When at the Amazons mercy, he claims that Arhian had wronged him by "entering his house, killing his kin, and stealing the girl from him,", but this is displayed as nothing more than him being pissed at Arhian for wounding his pride.

He clears the heinous bar as well. This story isn't exactly filled with saints; the story opens with Arhian pursuing a man wanted for several counts of rape, murder and pillaging, and the treacherous men on Arhian's lovers' ship are pretty nasty, but the former is all Offscreen Villainy and the latter just don't get up to that much.

Final Verdict?

I'd say he's a solid keeper.

Why so serious?
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#108827: Feb 12th 2018 at 8:03:34 PM

[tup] Grannark

[tdown] to Labby and cut Amon.

Does this mean we have to find another page for the Deviman Monster page or do we integrate the other Devilman candidates to the Anime Monster page?

edited 12th Feb '18 8:03:51 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#108828: Feb 12th 2018 at 8:06:36 PM

Yea on Granmark

@Dr Psyche I see what you did there kappa evil grin

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#108831: Feb 12th 2018 at 8:25:01 PM

[tup]Grannark.

Gonna read over a little something in a bit, see if a different alternate history work has a monster who could count.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#108832: Feb 12th 2018 at 8:28:02 PM

[tup] for Grannark the Dark Lord.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#108833: Feb 12th 2018 at 8:39:27 PM

We ever talk about Mandarin from Super Robot Monkey Go Go whatever it's called? Mark Hamill was in it.

Also, I think I reserved discussion on a Spanish animation known as Sendokai Champions.

edited 12th Feb '18 8:47:37 PM by Vampireandthen

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
hopeshalllive Since: Jan, 2016
#108834: Feb 12th 2018 at 8:50:09 PM

Was Carter Burke ever considered a CM?

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#108835: Feb 12th 2018 at 9:03:58 PM

[tup] Killgrave and Grannark.

Leaning cut to Piella, and a hearty and resounding NO to anyone from WTDGTD.

edited 12th Feb '18 9:05:53 PM by JoeBlitz

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#108836: Feb 12th 2018 at 9:08:28 PM

I’m watching A Matter of Loaf and Death right now.

edited 12th Feb '18 9:22:35 PM by futuremoviewriter

Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#108837: Feb 12th 2018 at 9:19:08 PM

Remember, A Close Shave darkened the whole series.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#108838: Feb 12th 2018 at 9:20:56 PM

I'll tally votes at midnight. That'll be an hour and forty minutes my time. We've had plenty of time to vote on Piella now.

We're not answering that question, Hope.

edited 12th Feb '18 9:21:27 PM by Scraggle

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#108839: Feb 12th 2018 at 9:24:04 PM

The only other ones I’ve seen are the movie and The Wrong Trousers.

A Matter of Loaf and Death was really good. Sorry vampire. I really wanted to agree with you, but I can’t. [tdown] to Piella.

Where’s Carter Burke from?

edited 12th Feb '18 9:25:08 PM by futuremoviewriter

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#108840: Feb 12th 2018 at 9:25:30 PM

Aliens. We've voted him down quite a few times now and a search could have resolved that instantly.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#108841: Feb 12th 2018 at 9:33:19 PM

I've been staying out of this Piella debate since it's been a while since I watched that short. Having given it a brief re-watching, I think I'll go with the majority and vote [tdown] on Piella. There are moments where she's portrayed as threatening, but it's ultimately undercut by one too many comedic moments.

Why so serious?
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#108842: Feb 12th 2018 at 9:43:24 PM

And her death is treated with sadness by both Wallace and Fluffles and Wallace imagines her ascending into Heaven.

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#108843: Feb 12th 2018 at 9:43:30 PM

Just reserved the upcoming Ted Bundy biopic for discussion.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#108844: Feb 12th 2018 at 9:49:03 PM

So, time for my next candidate.

What is the work?

Britannia's Fist is an alternate history trilogy that focuses on Britain and France realistically siding with the Confederacy in the Civil War and how the war becomes global.

So, who is our candidate today?

James R. "Big Jim" Smoke.

What has he done?

When introduced, Big Jim Smoke is described as, and I quote, a hater by nature, but now he had a cause.

See, he's a Copperhead who hates Lincoln a lot. He is also the chief Copperhead agent.

He is introduced leading a raid to gather weapons from an arsenal on what should have been a trap.

However, Big Jim's network let him know of the trap beforehand, and he makes damn sure the spy who has been of invaluable service as we ironically learn later on to the Union know his trap had failed before he killed him, kicking him in the face as he died. Big Jim then leads his men off with five thousand Springfield rifles, plotting a rebellion to take over the Northwest area of the Union and take Illinois, Indiana and Ohio into the Confederacy.

With that in mind, this rebellion almost never happens, but Big Jim kills at least three men before running off and escaping. See, there was an attempt by the Union cavalry to capture a portion of it, but that failed. He started a firefight that killed a lot of people, but yeah, this is self defense.

Big Jim next shows up playing a part in an attack on Camp Morton in Indiana, which houses three thousand Confederate PO Ws. He kills two of the guards quietly, bludgeoning one to death with his pistol brutally when he is awakened. These guards were volunteers for the record, which is why they were asleep. Yeah, he smiled the whole time as well.

Thankfully, Union cavalry shows up to stop the escape attempt, and Big Jim's disappears until the second book.

Want to know what he does here?

Becomes Abraham Lincoln's bodyguard under the Pinkerton fellow.

He made a plan with John Wilkes Booth to kidnap Lincoln, but this fell through. He also kills a black man who was spying on him, and clearly enjoyed it as well.

During the Confederate-British attack on Washington DC, Jim takes advantage of the confusion to try and kill Lincoln.

While Lincoln is comforting his wife and son.

Lincoln is literally holding them in his arms, and Big Jim attempts to blow his brains out with no emotion. I doubt he would have left without killing all three.

Thankfully, Lincoln's son managed to stop him, and Big Jim only grazes Lincoln, so he tries to kill Todd. He is stopped when a government agent arrives and fights him, but he beats that guy and almost kills him.

And then Lincoln goes full Papa Wolf on this guy's ass.

I mean that completely, Lincoln goes and wails on him, beating him to a bloody pulp. Don't fuck with Abraham Lincoln's kid.

Heinousness?

He doesn't get to do much, but Big Jim didn't have much resources to work with. What he did have he made full use of to try and bring down the Union. He takes a lot of pleasure in killing others brutally, and is established as being a feared and hated across the Northwest. That rebellion he tried to help carry out would have done a lot of damage.

Big Jim is also the one character who is never treated with outright respect in the whole trilogy, he's just treated as this utter prick who hates everyone. He is very much just a thug, but a very competent thug.

Mitigating Factors?

Big Jim is very competent and far more pragmatic than you would think for his character, often knowing when something is up and understanding when to strike. He could almost have killed Lincoln and his family if it wasn't for Todd.

While he doesn't have much screen time, he makes up for it by being the most outright malicious character in the whole trilogy.

Conclusion

Keep.

edited 12th Feb '18 9:52:23 PM by Vampireandthen

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#108845: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:02:30 PM

Catching up:

Yes to the Boss, S'Müz, Pizer, Otto Keisinger, the Parasites, Keith, Mothergod, Chameleon, Killgrave, Big Jim and Grannark.

No to Labby, that is a movie so infamous, I know it by reputation Also No to Piella and Preston. Cut Amon.

Anyway I have some write ups to do:

  • Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Adventures: Queen Maligna is the cruel leader of a race of alien insect warriors called the Malignoids. Maligna and her children seek out worlds teeming with life and consume them. Maligna is introduced when Krang contacts her, promising to lead her to Earth, if her warriors defeat the Turtles. After Krang's defeat, Maligna comes to Earth and begins her invasion. She sends eggs to earth, that contain larva that devour everything in their path. She sends pods to Earth, containing more adult Malignoids, who will attack everything in sight when they hatch. Maligna also has a habit of eating her own children, devouring one of her Malignoid warriors after he successfully completed a task for her. Maligna captures Raphael and Mondo Gecko, planning to have them fatten and tipped in honey, so she can devour them in a feast later. After the Turtles and their allies defeat her children on Earth, Maligna sends her armada of space ships to destroy everyone on Earth. Maligna is eventually defeated and vows to leave Earth, but later says she will return when they least expect it. Maligna returns much later, after her ally Mr. Null kills the Mighty Mutanimals, removing several of the heroes who opposed her off the board, planning to finish what she started and destroy the human race.
  • The Condor: Nigel Harrington is a partner in a company that develops nano tech implants and Taipan is a costumed mercenary he keeps in his employ. Harrington decides to use the company's nano tech implants to make profits illegally and has Taipan kidnap homeless people. Harrington and Taipan use the nano tech to mentally enslave the homeless people (as well as giving them enhanced speed and strength) and plan to test this tech by having them commit crimes. All of the homeless people die while committing these crimes, their hearts unable to take the stress this tech puts on them. Both Harrington and Taipan decided to kidnap younger, stronger, more athletic people instead, so Taipan begins to kidnap skate board enthusiasts and mentally enslaves them. After the other partners in the company, George and Maria Valdez, discover Harrington's scheme, Harrington orders Taipan to murder them, using some of their mind controlled pawns to kill them and make it look an accident. Taipan then lures their son Tony to the scene and has two of the mind controlled pawns to viciously beat him, crippling him. Taipan later tries to lure Tony to his death again (after he recovered some of his mobility due to an nano tech implants) and tries to have her mind controlled pawns finish him off. Later Taipan in her civilian identity, Valeria, invites Tony to her beach house, where she plans to kill him after seducing him. Tony escapes, but Valeria comes on to Tony's estranged cousin and convinces him to set Tony's house on fire, attempting to kill Tony's friends at the house. Later Harrington sets up a meeting with some terrorists, attempting to sell the tech and the mind controlled pawns to them. Things seem to be going well for him, till Taipan kills him and takes over the operation herself.

Anyway, its bit ironic that so far there are fewer monsters in the supposed more kid friendly Archie TMNT then then the Darker and Edgier Mirage comics, but the Mirage books were not as villain focused as the Archie comics.

Also I may be taking another break from the thread, because a few villains I want to propose will take time.

edited 12th Feb '18 10:21:03 PM by Overlord

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#108846: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:06:01 PM

I'll just edge yea to Big Jim sounding like a keep at his level. Weak keep, but sounds like he's got enough sadistic murders on his conscience.

edited 12th Feb '18 10:06:59 PM by Scraggle

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#108847: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:08:27 PM

Watched A Grand Day Out (pretty good, but The Wrong Trousers is so great, it’s hard for anything to compete). Starting A Close Shave now.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#108848: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:36:47 PM

[tup]Killgrave, Big Jim and Grannark. [tdown] to Labby, Piella and Preston

Wait did somone bring up Skeleton King from Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce Go. Hell [tdown][tdown][tdown] to skeleton king. He started off as a kindly scientist and was forcefully turned evil by a race of eldtrich abomniations to assimilate the universe. Hes a Tragic Monster very far from this trope.

edited 12th Feb '18 11:01:57 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#108849: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:47:00 PM

A Close Shave was also good, but [tdown] to Preston. A malfunctioned robot can’t have agency. You got a better chance of making a case for Quartermaine and he definitely doesn’t count.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#108850: Feb 12th 2018 at 10:58:32 PM

Alright effort-post time. As its the 13th where i live.

What is the setting ?

The Dissidia series is to Final Fantasy as Super Smash Bros. is to Nintendo. It's a Massive Multiplayer Crossover Mascot Fighting Game for the bone-breakingly popular Final Fantasy series, bringing together heroes and villains from across the first thirteen games to battle it out for the fate of the multiverse.

The story goes that the God of Discord, Chaos, and the Goddess of Harmony, Cosmos (a new character), are waging war by summoning champions from other worlds to a new world. The champions are tasked to fight until one of the two gods is victorious, at which point they will be freed to return home, but there's far more to the war than the mortals have been told, and the war isn't as divinely important as they're lead to believe. The game's story reveals that the war between the gods is part of a "Groundhog Day" Loop, with Laser-Guided Amnesia inflicted on the losers before they awaken to fight again after one side loses. Thus the heroes seek to carry out Cosmos's plan to bring about a true end to the cycles and stop the plans of Chaos's warriors to exploit the cycle for their own ends. Bonus storylines reveal the nature of the two gods, how the war came to start, and why.

Dissdia 2015 or dissdia nt serves as a direct sequel picking up where the previous game left off. Set in a cycle of conflict following that from the original Dissidia, now governed by Materia and Spiritus, who like Cosmos and Chaos before them, respectively summon heroes and villains across various Final Fantasy games.

Who is the villain and what has he done ?

Shinryu serves as the Greater-Scope Villain of the first two games and the Big Bad of the dissdia 2015.

So Cid in the beginning made a deal with Shinryu to arrange the entire cycle of war. While Cid did this to just help him get home and for what the nation of ornac did to them. Shinryu does this simply so that he can absorb energy and memories from the warriors that fall from both sides to make himself stronger , causing unknown amounts of violence and pain between combatants summoned from other worlds to fight, and does it because his stake in the war is to gain more power as the warriors fight each other and he’s done to this them for centuries. Sometimes he doesn't revive one of the warriors and instead leaves their spirits to rot in the Void for eternity simply because they no longer have any strength for him to steal. Doesn’t matter which side you fight for or how long you’ve been doing it if he feels you’ve outlived your usefulness then your gone.

In the final cycle, Cid intervenes to save the other warriors as Chaos dies, and Shinryu punishes this because he and Cid were not to interfere in the fight, and tried to end the cycle (though see mitigating factors for why this isn’t mitigating) that was one of the rules of the cycle.. Shinryu's precise punishment for Cid was to trap him in a nightmare world where the cycles kept going, Chaos eventually went berserk and killed all the summoned warriors, forcing Cid in the dream world to seal Cosmos and himself in a cavern for protection. This throws Cid's sacrifice and his care for Cosmos and Chaos (long story, they're his wife and son, basically) in his face, and Cid would have been trapped there forever (And I Must Scream) if the player's characters didn't enter the world and free him.

While in the Dream World it's implied he was subjugated by the insane Chaos, in the real world, after the cycle ended Shinryu departed but not before absorbing the leftover power from chaos.

Returning in dissdia 2015 where a new world has been created and ruled by by the reincarnations of cosmos and chaos known as materia and spirtius respectively , he summons manifestations of himself called ‘’planegorgers’’ which literally start to eat all of the created realms to feed himself. The heroes under Materia realise that Spirtius who leads the villain faction isn’t that bad and discover Shinryu is the true mastermind serving as the Big Bad. They make an Enemy Mine and stage a battleroyale between the heroes and villains (who are also sick off the conflict and want out as well) to collect enough energy from the battle to draw him out, knowing that he’ll be attracted to it.

Every hero and villain strikes him slicing him in half. Unfortunately that wasn’t his true form but his Energy Being form he used in the first two games and this causes him since this is a Final fantasy game to go One-Winged Angel. You then finish him off in an epic boss fight taking him out for good.

Mitigating factors ?

Okay let’s get this first one out of the way. In dissidia 2015, he really doesn’t have much personality that being said, scenario ooo from the previous game fleshed him out giving him both a personality (he actually talks there) and a motivation. This is carried onto here which is a canocial sequel meaning it’s the same shinryu with the same motivations and they mention said motivations in-universe in dissdia 2015 ( to absorb more power and become all-powerful). So no issue there. So this sort of an example like eredin where both need to be taken inot consideration and so he does pass there with that in mind.

Other than that nothing to speak off:

This punishment he gave to Cid is not appropriate and not mitigating due to fact that it's implied Shinryu intervened first by giving his power to Chaos for the final battle, and most importantly Cosmos had already died meaning the cycle was over no matter what the outcome of the final battle, Cid just saved them because he saw the value Cosmos gave to their lives. Meaning he had no reason to do that other he could. So shinryu was just being a dick for no reason other than he could or because Cid all because he ‘’dared’’ feel guilt over what happened to cosmos and chaos.

Finally while Cid, Cosmos and Chaos just want to go home and Garland is doing as he's ordered because he was the first to be summoned and he knows his destiny is to take part then be sent home. Shinryu takes part only because he gets stronger.

Heinous standard ?

Sets it as hes caused unknown amounts of violence and pain between combatants summoned from other worlds to fight, and does it because his stake in the war is to gain more power as the warriors fight each other and he’s done to this them for centuries. and while you could make an argument that in the first two games that he shares some of his responsibility with cid, Shinryu is still the one who calls the shots and that idea doesn’t hold up in game no. 3 as he is now doing this again and threatening to destroy all of world b to gain more power and is independent of anyone else. Hes also destroying all of world B in dissdia 2015 just to gain more power when he really doesn’t need it.

Conclusion

[tup] and for anyone wondering he was the only Karma Houdini on the Final Fantasy monster page and so know with his defeat final fantasy is one of the only franchise pages to have no CM Karma houdinis.

edited 12th Feb '18 11:00:33 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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