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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10826: Mar 31st 2013 at 7:33:08 PM

Here's where your own words defeat your point, though:

Angels and demons are not automatons; they can change their thoughts and feelings, experience love and hate, become redeemed or corrupted.

when you admit this, then you've conceded the moral agency debate. The fact that destiny is a real thing means little. Destiny is very real in many works on this list, but it does not change the fact Diablo chooses to do everything he does.

Diablo's crimes are explicit in the games, backstories, flashbacks and books. and yes, I do hate him very much for ruining Leoric out of nothing but spite. For torturing a child solely for his own amusement. For corrupting a city and damning its inhabitants for the sole reason that them being good people pissed him off.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10827: Mar 31st 2013 at 7:38:21 PM

Do you think that Diablo might have chosen not to do those things? Do they surprise or shock you? Is it in any way unexpected or unusual for the Lord of Fear, one of the three Prime Evils, spawn of Tathamet, to not seek to corrupt and destroy everyone and everything he touches? Where is the choice here? Is there any point at which Diablo is seen to choose Evil when he could have chosen Good?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10828: Mar 31st 2013 at 7:44:45 PM

See, yes, he could choose not to do a lot of that. He goes out of his way to be ridiculously evil when he feels like it. We know he make the his possession gradual and erase the former host's personality. With Albrecht, he chooses not to do this and instead tortures the kid in his head.

With that holy city? He literally takes time out of his endless, eternal war to skip down and corrupt a city that has zero value in anything but his amusement

here is all that counts:

1. Diablo's actions are heinous by the standards of the story.

2. Diablo has agency to do these things as you yourself have admitted in the above post.'

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10829: Mar 31st 2013 at 7:48:53 PM

No, I have not accepted that Diablo has moral agency and will not. I vote against him. In the world of Diablo, only mortals have agency to choose their fate, and thus can qualify for Complete Monster.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10830: Mar 31st 2013 at 7:51:57 PM

Your own words: Angels and demons are not automatons; they can change their thoughts and feelings, experience love and hate, become redeemed or corrupted.

This is moral agency in a nutshell and makes my own argument better than I could have said it myself. Diablo can change. He can experience love. He would be capable of redeeming himself should he pursue it

Your argument is based around "Because destiny exists, they cannot be Complete monsters" which seems faulty to me. Predestination does not count for me as the lack of free will

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10831: Mar 31st 2013 at 7:52:33 PM

In Sanctuary, it does. That's the whole point of Ithereal's and Auriel's speeches in Act IV, plus the lore snippets that drop.

edited 31st Mar '13 7:53:01 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10832: Mar 31st 2013 at 7:57:21 PM

The problem again there is we have seen demons and angels change. Not every angel is redeemable, either. Look at Inarius.

Predestination for me doesn't change it. If Diablo can feel and experience love, hatred, or could be redeemed, then he has a choice in what he does.

For me it's "It is written you will choose this."

for it to count against, it'd be "Someone is making you do this."

edited 31st Mar '13 8:02:37 PM by Lightysnake

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10833: Mar 31st 2013 at 8:12:46 PM

I think you're overlooking that something that is Made of Evil (or, conversely, Good) can still be a thinking being with feelings, desires, and the ability to plan their actions and respond to suasion. That doesn't mean they have moral agency, it just makes them not mindless robots.

Angels and demons have no choice about their fundamental nature. They are individuals with their own motives and desires, but the conflict between Anu and Tathamet is eternal and is carried out by their respective children, of which the Archangels and the Great Evils are the most powerful incarnations. There can never not be a war between the High Heavens and the Burning Hells, save for the intervention of the Nephalem.

As for Tyrael's apparent ability to choose, I'm not sure how that's supposed to fit into the mythology, but it is entirely in keeping with Tyrael's nature as the Aspect of Justice. Justice was not served by him continuing to be a member of the Angiris Council, so he shed his wings and plummeted to Sanctuary. In all of this, and despite his mortality, he continues to serve Justice. At the end, he stands as Wisdom in Malthael's absence, but I have a feeling that's not going to turn out well.

Still, the point remains. Angels and demons cannot choose their inner nature, nor seek to change it. It can be changed involuntarily, but never entirely.

edited 31st Mar '13 8:13:45 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10834: Mar 31st 2013 at 8:16:26 PM

That's the thing: we saw demons outright give up the war with the High Heavens. Except for Lilith, all of them put down the sword and were living peacefully. Even Lilith genuinely fell in love.

Angels aren't exactly shiny and heroic, either. Inarius fell irrdeemably low. Imperius is just as bad as the demons, and you site another example that defeats your point: Tyrael changes his nature. He becomes human and at the end, becomes Wisdom rather than Justice.

Tyrael changed his nature voluntarily. So did Inarius. So did the demons who fled the war and founded Sanctuary.

If something can be redeemed, it has to have agency

edited 31st Mar '13 8:21:11 PM by Lightysnake

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10835: Mar 31st 2013 at 8:29:03 PM

Redemption for angels means something different than for mortals. Still, Tyrael's case is an outlier. I don't know what it is supposed to indicate for the roles of angels and demons in the Diablo universe, but presumably his actions were written in the Scroll of Fate, or Ithereal would have said something about it. Otherwise it defies the game's own pronouncement that angels cannot change their nature. Heck, it was in Cain's book of Horadric legends — Tyrael's fall was explicitly prophecied.

There's something of a paradox there, in the sense of how it's possible for predestination to exist alongside beings who are explicitly exempt from it. But what I suspect is that the Nephalem's interference with Fate brought a measure of free will to everyone in creation, including the angels.

All that said, there is no evidence that Diablo ever had any choice in being a Prime Evil, nor that he ever rejected an opportunity to be anything but that. Complete Monster is not supposed to be about creatures like him, anyway.

edited 31st Mar '13 8:31:42 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10836: Mar 31st 2013 at 8:31:44 PM

I see nothing that excludes an evil demon from being a CM in what it's about. We had a similar conversation about Mephisto and decided he qualifies.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10837: Mar 31st 2013 at 8:32:35 PM

I didn't participate in that discussion, but I would have voted against Mephisto as well, for the same reason.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10838: Mar 31st 2013 at 8:33:43 PM

I understand that, but consensus on him was quite solid with the rest of us.

Diablo's never chosen otherwise because he simply likes who and what he is. For me that doesn't mitigate him much.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10839: Mar 31st 2013 at 8:35:42 PM

Or possibly, Diablo never changes because he cannot change, because he's Made of Evil. That's why I have one vote, and I have cast it. Respect that, please. If others disagree, fine.

edited 31st Mar '13 8:36:19 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10840: Mar 31st 2013 at 8:36:32 PM

I do respect it. We're having what I believe has been a respectful debate to this point.

And my answer to that is we have seen other demons change. The demons who deserted the war with Lilith. While Lilith was and remained a monster, the other demons genuinely desired peace and loved their children and angels.

Lilith killed all the angels and demons for that reason,a and even she was tempted at times to lay down her plots until the allure of power got too much for her because she genuinely loved Inarius.

edited 31st Mar '13 8:38:24 PM by Lightysnake

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10841: Mar 31st 2013 at 8:38:20 PM

Fair enough. I apologize for taking offense.

Edit: However, I would argue that Diablo does nothing in the third game to justify being labeled a CM in it. As I said, sacking the High Heavens and trying to destroy the Arch is Generic Doomsday Villain stuff. A lot of his more horrible acts are offscreen from the perspective of the games themselves, especially the ones that feature in the tie-in novels, which I have not read.

With Lilith and Inarius, I have to wonder if creating Sanctuary and spawning the Nephalem might not have worked some kind of change to their natures. Do we have to make a distinction here between game-canon and EU-canon? I am also continually puzzled by the paradoxical inconsistency of having a predestined future recorded in the Scrolls of Fate, yet having a race of people who can defy that fate.

edited 31st Mar '13 8:51:52 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10842: Mar 31st 2013 at 9:04:26 PM

No,for game 3, Diablo's pretty basic. His actions in 2 and 1 and the tie-ins are what gets him in here for me.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10843: Mar 31st 2013 at 9:12:22 PM

He hardly does anything in the first game, either. He's offscreen for all but the final battle; Lazarus is clearly supposed to be the one doing all the bad stuff. In 2, he runs around as the Dark Wanderer releasing his brothers, then goes to Hell to take charge again. Sure, lots of evil happens in his wake but I don't get the sense of personal involvement that CM requires.

edited 31st Mar '13 9:12:38 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10844: Mar 31st 2013 at 9:15:10 PM

However, you see the effect of everything he's done. Moreover, the game guides and flashbacks/tie ins show what he does. Leoric and Albrecht being amongst the worst deeds. Diablo is very, very involved in things. the Prime Evils simply prefer to act behind the scenes

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10845: Mar 31st 2013 at 9:19:29 PM

CM cannot be an Informed Attribute. I still don't get the sense that I'm intended, as a player, to hate Diablo in the sense that I might hate Lazarus or, later, Adria. Diablo is merely a thing that has to be destroyed for the sake of the world's existence; it's his mortal collaborators who are the truly horrible people.

Leoric is a victim of Diablo, but only because of Lazarus' collaboration. Same with Albrecht. It's through Adria that Diablo is able to execute his plan to become the Prime Evil. They are the ones we are really supposed to hate, because they had a choice.

I get the sense that a lot of the material that supports Diablo as a CM really comes from the tie-in novels, and if that's true, then we could still write him up, but make it clear that it's not sourced in the games themselves.

edited 31st Mar '13 9:20:44 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10846: Mar 31st 2013 at 9:24:11 PM

It ceases to be an informed attribute when you have the game guides, written practically like novels, describing what he's doing, and Deckard Cain witnessing it in visions.

It's all not informed ability when you step into places that are having systematic slaughter committed on them because Diablo rolled through. And what he did to Albrecht, Leoric, and many others was seen.

Diablo has a clear personality, too. He's far from a 'thing.' He's intelligent, sadistic and very, very self aware and contemptuous of humanity. He's not a force of nature, any more than his brothers.

I'm not really sure where you're getting this interpretation of the Prime Evils. They're all incredibly intelligent beings. In the games alone, Mephsto demonstrates he's the leader of the trio...Baal happily sits down and has a chat with Marius before rather cruelly revealing his true nature and murdering him. Diablo tolerates Marius's presence through and even has friendly chats with him...when Leoric resists Diablo, Diablo spitefully leaves him a corrupted shell of himself. Diablo very nastily tortures that poor kid Albrecht while fully aware of what he's doing...whenever Diablo speaks, he demonstrates full personality and evil as opposed to being a mindless force of terror.

I mean, Lazarus helps Diablo get to Albrecht and Leoric, but? He's bringing victims to a locked up Diablo in his little prison. Diablo is the one who selected the victims and told Lazarus to hand them to him. Leoric is a victim because Diablo selected him. Lazarus was involved heavily, but if not for Diablo there'd be no victim.

Also in the first Diablo game, there's a section where the game itself narrates all the lore to you. That's where all of what Lazarus does is at, too

edited 31st Mar '13 9:32:35 PM by Lightysnake

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#10847: Apr 1st 2013 at 7:59:50 AM

We already covered Diablo. Search "diablo complete monster" - this was discussed in July. We really don't need to keep re-arguing the same examples that we've already gone over.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#10848: Apr 1st 2013 at 8:38:44 AM

I admit: I gave the Diablo examples a free pass, all of them. But I was misinformed about the trope so I decided to look back at it.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#10849: Apr 1st 2013 at 8:54:05 AM

I recall reading the earlier discussions but its a good thing it came up again because there's an example all if us have admitted is a bad one (zoltan Kulle) with heaps of Offscreen Villainy. Plus I don't see Diablo himself discussed

shoboni Since: Oct, 2010
#10850: Apr 1st 2013 at 11:03:22 AM

Anyone else have a opinion on the fanfic example I proposed?

  • Silent Ponyville The Colt, he butchers foals alive and bakes them into cupcakes, and never shows remorse for his actions. He even feeds Pinkie a cupcake made from her own little sister. Celestia herself says noone has committed crimes as heinous as his in centuries, and has to think twice before declining to have him executed

edited 1st Apr '13 11:04:01 AM by shoboni


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