During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Heinous Non-CM:
Cersei Lannister
Colonel Stuart from ‘’Die Hard 2.
Briar.
edited 5th Feb '18 10:46:22 AM by k410ren
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsAny list of heinous non-CMs has to include Paul Saetta. Serial child-rapist and child-killer, who ONLY doesn't count because his last words are "Look after Mom."
edited 5th Feb '18 10:56:27 AM by ACW
Hell yes to Briar Harvestar. I recall she had the Locust Lord whispering to her from birth, which she describes as the best feeling 'cause it made her feel like the most special girl in the world, but that's temptation rather than Mind Control or anything, and did absolutely nothing to take away from Briar's capacity to make her own choices. She allowed herself to be corrupted because she was a sociopath and from there her evildoing went beyond what anything in her past could validate.
Not sure I could cite all the most heinous non-CM villains I can recall. There's Count Bleck from Super Paper Mario (same game as true CM Dimentio), the Bowsers in Paper Jam, Cyrus, Ghetsis, and Lysandre in the Pokemon games, the D-Reaper and Lord Bagramon from Digimon, Evil Queen Regina, Rumpelstiltskin, Cora, Hades, and the Black Fairy from Once Upon a Time, a lot of characters from Game of Thrones and it's source material books, and lord knows how many Dragon Ball, Yu Yu Hakusho, Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece villains that have something(s) keeping them from qualifying.
edited 5th Feb '18 11:13:16 AM by ANewMan
to Briar. Damn, it's been a long time since I read Bone. I should pick it up again.
![]()
You absolutely should, it's great. Not without narrative flaws, but great nonetheless. I hear that Dreamworks is looking to make a movie trilogy based on the three chapters of the story (Vernal Equinox, Solstice, and Harvest), which could turn out incredible or disastrous depending on who they get to be involved.
Briar and Abigail
Rand
Heinous non-CM's? Viktor Dragovich, human trafficker extraordinary, who only doesn't qualify because he deeply loves his family.
Cut Rand
Oh if we can have more than one... Then aside from Majora from The Legend Of Zelda: Majora's Mask, the other most heinous Non-C Ms for me would have to be Jack The Ripper from Assassins Creed: Syndicate, Danzo from Naruto: Shippuden, Princess Shroob from Mario and Luigi: Partners In Time, Cersei Lannister from Game Of Thrones, Zen-O from Dragon Ball Super, Jedediah Shine from Ripper Street, David 8 from Alien: Covenant, Lusamine from Pokemon: Sun And Moon, Aku from Samurai Jack, and Eric Cartman from South Park
edited 5th Feb '18 2:33:06 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffKil'jaeden from world of warcraft; the only reasons he doesn't qualify are that aside from his dying moments he does show some regret even before (when Velen denounces him as a monster who butchers his own people kil'jaeden smashes the screen in anger and when sargeras expresses doubt over how committed he is he shouts "I GAVE MY WORLD FOR THE CAUSE".)
Cassus Fett also qualifies in a way; if it weren't for his sense of honor he would
Speaking of which did the maker ever get a writeup?
Rand
Briar
Most Heinous non-C Ms(arranged by franchise):
Ghetsis, Lysandre and Pre-USUM Game!Lusamine, Saul Karath, Darth Nihilus, Supreme Leader Snoke(at least until his backstory is established more), General Hux, Sargeras, Majora, the darker incarnations of Ganondorf, Zen-O, Show!Cersei(book Cersei is still quite possible) and Littlefinger, Aku, Eric Cartman, Ultimate!Red Skull, D-Reaper and Beelzemon, the Shroobs, the Paper Jam!Bowers, Hive and Mallick, Esdeath, Mayuri, Orochimaru, Katejina Loos, Crux Dogatie, Rau Le Creuset, Mr. Redfield(or rather, the current incarnation of Redfield that the characters deal with in the visual novel), Jake Featherston, Oswald Mosley, Roman Ungern Von Sternburg, Hermann von Goering, and Corneliu Codreanu(whose are all implied to be this but their actions are either preventable by player choice or are all Inferred Holocaust and Offscreen Villainy), Arrowverse!Prometheus, Zanza
I also know of a character in a work that's been developed that is set to become a "heinous non-CM" due to a genuine Alas, Poor Villain and Heel–Face Door-Slam despite his actions as I am somewhat involved with project development, through it's still at least a year away at most before he can be discussed. I'll say to not PM me about this character as while I can recount the details of how this character dosen't qualify, it's one of the "it has to be seen to be believed sort of characters".
edited 5th Feb '18 6:46:04 PM by xie323
Heinous non-CM? Sauther from Fist of the North Star. Or Castor Troy from Face Off
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Of course I mean Game!Lusamine.
Speaking of the Pokemon Anime I wonder if they are going to introduce Necrozma, the Big Bad of Pokemon: Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon. If so, then I hope they make his character and motives more align to Darkrai from the Mystery Dungeon series. It would be pretty cool to have another Pokemon to qualify as a CM.
oh yeah I forgot to vote for Abigail. In that case
To her
edited 5th Feb '18 1:42:35 PM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffOh yeah!
to Abigail and Briar
Also, another heinous non-CM.....Lady Charlotte Ermengarde. If only she doesnt have a screw up agency or ambiguity after she became a ghost.....Yea
edited 5th Feb '18 1:49:26 PM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Adam Taurus. He had barely any screen time in Volume 5 and his fate at the end of the volume was very pathetic. He doesn't have Cinder's gravitas for now, and ever since she was accepted as a CM, she sets the standard.
He remains a potential future candidate as far as I'm concerned but, then again, Cinder's only just reaching acceptable CM status for me as a result of V5, so perhaps my CM standards are too fussy.
That said, I do think Cinder's entry needs a rewrite.
For people who were asking about Salem but don't follow the show. The problem with her is that, although she's the Big Bad and all the villains in the show are either carrying out her plot or being sucked into it, she's currently a Non-Action Big Bad. She stays in a tower in a mysterious, isolated place (I have my suspicions about why) while her subordinates carry out her will around the world.
Salem won't be a contender for CM for a long time. Not because she doesn't have the mentality or sheer scale of ambition, but simply because her current role in the story doesn't allow for it.
And
to Shaoqing.
edited 5th Feb '18 2:07:47 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.Thanks to the person who mentioned Orochimaru. "goes to vent his rage on his personal boxing bag"
Oh, and my one and only favorite Hate Sink, who get's me worked up 1000x more than ANY CM ever could: Malcolm 'Karma Houdini' Merlyn. One of the worst fathers of all time, a pathetic coward and just overall one of the most disgusting sacks of shit to ever grace TV. He is a perfect example of a Tragic Villain managing to destroy every ounce of sympathy one could possibly have for him by just being....alright, I'm gonna stop myself here. Otherwise my tirade of hate could easily go on for more than 10 pages
edited 5th Feb '18 2:11:36 PM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianThe agency issue made me pause, but the fact that Briar is clearly willing and able to defy the Locust for her own selfish ends, even when threatened with death should she screw up again, suggests that the closest thing to 'agency' that we might get is Gone Horribly Right.
Given that she's a problem even for the Locust, I'll give Briar a
edited 5th Feb '18 2:38:40 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Briar
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff