During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Scraggle and DDD: Pothole cut/changed. G-Editor: Fixed.
Juju; Rexo; Proteus.
Yeah, there will be a LOT. I asked Scraggle, and he said 10-20, and they run the whole gamut of resources.
Regarding books vs. movies: Books allow a LOT more. Look at my Ultron. The book goes THOROUGHLY into his thoughts to move him out of GDV territory. Though if Martin's only from the films, we should probably cut him from the Lit page and add him to the film page.
YAM brings up an interesting point about Sinister; this seems more important than a mere Depending on the Author.
edited 5th Feb '18 3:30:31 AM by ACW
the Valiant examples.
Also speaking of most heinous non CMs, anyone thinking about cutting Dr. Leo Rand. While he's certianly heinous thinking back I feel he's got a vauge redeeming quality and that for all the build up they had for him and his apathy for others aside, he does have what is pretty much a well intentioned goal; his ultimate to create a cure for the zombie virus by creating a regenerative strain. And it's not like hes doing this to make himself look good as he states he is doesn't care what people think of him and that he's not doing this for his ego. Now there's no denying that he does some heinous stuff with both an "ends justify the means" and "needs of the many" mindset. It helps that when he does create the perfect regenerative strain, it actually ends up working and that rather than fight Rand, the protagonist spends time arguing with him about the morality of their situation and the two end up reasoning with eachother.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Guys please come to this image pick in thread :Marvel comics
Things have Hit a stalemate and its one page that needs to have a picture, so some help would be nice.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I see what I can do regarding the images but maybe at a later time
Also, speaking of heinous non-CM. I remember about two guys from the anime that I used to watch in my childhood. And that's the big bad of Fighting Foodon, Gorgeous George and The Archenemy of Kindaichi in Kindaichi Case Files Takato Yoichi. The former doesnt count due to the Heel-Face Turn that he has for the last episode while the latter doesnt count due to his honorable traits,several mitigating factors and I think his first murdering spree is because of the victims murdered his own mother so thats something.....If you want to talk about it feel free to ask in P Ms
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Okay, Shaoqing has 10
and 0
, so I’ll be doing a write up!
- How Marron Met Robin
: Shaoqing is a vicious gang leader with a history of muggings, beatings, and murder. He and his gang regularly attempt to rob Marron and her mother's flower shop. When Marron accidentally spills coffee on his shirt, he gleefully tells her she can "pay in teeth". However, when a homeless man mocks his grammar, an enraged Shaoqing drags both him and Marron into an alleyway to kill them. When Robin arrives to save them, Shaoqing abandons his crew when they are beaten. Wanting revenge, Shaoqing kills two cops who were guarding Marron’s apartment, and assaults her when he tricks her into letting him in. When Robin, once again, arrives to save Marron. Shaoqing reveals his plan to kill her, Marron, and the homeless man for "ruining his life". When Robin sends him stumbling off the apartment roof, he spends his last moments before falling trying to drag Marron down with him.
edited 5th Feb '18 6:45:30 AM by UtterKoala
As far as most heinous non-CM goes its hard to top Bondrewd
edited 5th Feb '18 6:51:41 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ah yeah, him. That guy is one of the examples of a villain who doesnt need to be CM to be a bit complex I guess
Ayyy I also wont forget about Anime!Buppa too.....Yes, he does breach the heinous standard but given the one redeeming quality that he has....Yea, thats a bit disappointing
edited 5th Feb '18 7:01:24 AM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."One really heinous customer that doesn't qualify? Yuga Khan, husband to Heggra and father to Darkseid. Made out as even worse than Darkseid and scored an impressive rap sheet during the few issues he was active, which included making the conditions on Apokolips even worse than they already were on top of the casual destruction of entire inhabited planets.
Even then? Yuga Khan loved his wife Heggra and detests his son for having had her murdered. Oddly enough, of all people, his arc in New Gods seemed to emphasize Desaad of all people as the absolute lowest, least redeemable form of scum there was, one Khan detested for carrying out Heggra's murder out of such self-serving motives.
Strangely enough, this was probably also the closest Darkseid ever got to genuine redeeming qualities, too... albeit ones that were eventually rendered null by the time of ''Final Crisis, but it is an interesting time in his history. Still somewhat bitter Yuga Khan misses.
edited 5th Feb '18 6:57:49 AM by Scraggle
So anyone on cutting Leo Rand ?
Also my list of heinous customers who don't make the cut. Mostly due to last minute redeeming qualities, Heel–Face Turn or Pet the Dog moments
Inanna from Carmilla the Series for her last minutes redeeming quality, for bringing about centuries worth of being a mass murdering, human sacrifice practicing, enslaving, psychologically abusive mother, trying to bring about Hell on Earth...all to bring back her dead husband.
Theo Raeken from Teen Wolf because let's face it, he started out as a subversion of Draco in Leather Pants and pretty much the only reason they brought him back was to play that trope strait. Look all I'm saying is that maybe he would have remained dead had he not been played by Cody Christian.
Cersei Lannister of course.
ALLIE from The 100 for turning out to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist and her malevolence coming from her AI programming.
edited 5th Feb '18 7:21:57 AM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Kai Anderson- admittedly nowhere near most of these others, but anyone who tries to make his mark by having 1,000 pregnant women murdered not counting rankles a bit (though, again, it almost seem like he was trying too hard to cross the MEH).
There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.Got another fanwork rec
What is the work?
The second work in the Ruby and Nora series, Weiss and Pyrrha
.
Who is she?
Abigail Lemon.
What did she do?
Abigail worked as a nurse in the hospital the Weiss was admitted to after being stabbed by Keter. She is revealed to be an Angel of Death Serial Killer when hospital staff notes that patients under her care tend to die often. While she initially presents herself as a benevolent person in Chapter 1, she quickly shows her true colors in the next chapter when she tries to kill Weiss with a morphine overdose. Weiss luckily notices, but Abby reopens the stitches, causing Weiss to nearly bleed to death.
Pyrrha comes in just in tim to see this. This prompts Abigail to unleash her Semblance to escape, an EMP blast that ends up killing almost a hundred people on life-support. She shows no remorse for this when Pyrrha confronts her later. Before she is caught and lures Pyrrha in, she leaves a book with all the names of her victims written it. Basically bragging about her kills.
In fact, she thinks that having such control over life and death makes her a goddess. She admits this much after trying to lure Pyrrha into a trap to kill her. She kills three cops that assisted Pyrrha and only failed to kill her because of Pyrrha's Semblance. Her motivation is mostly sating her ego and partially sadism.
Mitigating factors?
None to speak of.
Heinous Standard?
The Big Bad of the previous story, Admah Keter, was a Serial Killer as well, but he didn't have nearly the same bodycount. She outdoes his with only one use of her Semblance and still has plenty more under her belt.
Plus, with the story now taking an AU path, Cinder has not yet set the standard.
Verdict?
I would say that she does fit.
He cared about his sister. Murdered her in a fit of paranoia, but he was sobbing throughout, and broke down after he found out she hadn't actually betrayed him. Also still seemed to care about his dead mother. (He was also enough of a misogynist that it's hard to be sure how much of this stuck by the end, but he'd gone through major Sanity Slippage by then.)
And for the record, he didn't get to go through with that plan- first he could "only" find info on 100 women, then the heroine who had infiltrated his cult blew the whistle. Still, anyone who tries to emulate and surpass folks like Manson with a "Night of 1,000/100 Tates" sticks in my head, tryhard or no.
There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.Long overdue yes to Adam Taurus. Also yes to Papa Juju, Rexo, and Proteus.
Here's a candidate from the fantastic comic book series, Bone. For anyone unfamiliar with it, Bone tells the story of three cousins, Fone Bone, Phoney Bone and Smiley Bone, who are part of a race of Cartoon Creatures called… well, Bones. Phoney, who’s always working on his latest Get-Rich-Quick Scheme, got the trio run out of their hometown of Boneville (again) after his failed attempt to run for mayor. While on the run, the three quickly get lost and separated from one another by a cloud of locusts. Each of them find themselves in the Valley, a Magical Land populated by Medieval-Era-esque humans. Fone Bone meets, and immediately falls in love with, a Farm Girl named Thorn and stays with her and her Gran’ma Ben until he can find his cousins and go home. At the same time, monsters known as Rat Creatures are violating the ancient treaty that kept them out of the Valley.
The three cousins eventually reunite but circumstances keep them in the Valley, where they become more embroiled in current events. The Rat Creatures turn out to be rallied by a mysterious figure called the Hooded One, who’s in service to an Ancient Evil called the Lord of the Locusts. Gran’ma Ben reveals that she’s actually Rose Harvestar, the former Queen of Atheia—the old kingdom—and that Thorn is the rightful heir to the throne. Thorn also discovers she is someone called a Veni-Yan-Cari, a person with exceptional powers due to their ability to naturally hear the Dreaming, the spirit world where everyone comes from and one day returns to. Needless to say, things have become complicated as the Lord of the Locusts threatens to destroy the world.
So… essentially imagine a Disney-esque cartoon character accidentally crossing genres into something like The Lord of the Rings and you’ll have a good idea of what Bone is like… And yes, it is awesome.
Anyway, the candidate from this series is the chief servant of the Lord of the Locusts, the Hooded One. While the Locust is Sealed Evil in a Can, the Hooded One carries out his will and serves as The Heavy of the story. Beware of spoilers since the Hooded One’s identity is kept hidden until around halfway through the series.
Who is the Hooded One?
The Hooded One is actually Briar Harvestar, the undead, elder sister of Gran’ma Ben. As a young woman, it was thought that Briar’s Dreaming Eye, the one that connected her with the Dreaming and lends her power, was blind. Since this connection to the Dreaming is an important part of the royal line, it’s speculated Briar will be passed over for Queen by her younger sister, Rose. In reality, not only is Briar's Dreaming Eye awake, but she's one of the most powerful Veni-Yan-Cari born in millennia, and ever since she was a little girl, the Lord of the Locusts has been in contact with her. She’s since sworn allegiance to him and is working on a way to free him from his prison.
See, long ago the Queen of the Dragons, Mim, ruled both the waking world and the Dreaming, and by encircling the world with her tail in her mouth, she made sure that both worlds flourished and the balance between them was maintained. Unfortunately, a nightmare spirit known as the Lord of the Locusts, grew unhappy and wanted to experience the waking world for himself, but he couldn’t do that without a physical body. The Locust possessed Mim, driving her mad, and caused the world to fall out of balance, which threatened to destroy all life. The entire race of dragons fought against him, and when they realized they couldn’t save their Queen, they turned her to stone to stop the Locust from destroying the world. The Locust is still alive and aware inside Mim but can’t communicate with the outside world aside from Veni-Yan-Cari, but one person alone isn’t enough to free the Locust. There must be two and Briar wants to make sure that she’s the strongest of the pairing to retain the Locust’s favor.
Briar’s first attempt to free the Lord of the Locusts was as a young woman, when she and Rose visited the Headmaster of the Disciples of Venu, an order of monk-like soldiers trained in the Dreaming Arts. During her time there, Briar used her power to enslave a river dragon by the name of Balsaad. With the immense power of her Dreaming Eye joined together with Balsaad’s, Briar would have enough power to free the Lord of the Locusts. She sends him to attack the town of Oak Bottom, and Balsaad goes on a rampage, killing everyone in the open. Briar also makes a deal with an army of Rat Creatures, enlisting them into her war against her own kingdom. She then arranges for the Rat Creatures to ambush and kill the troops led by Lucius Down, the Captain of the Guard and the man that Briar had used magic to seduce away from her sister, Rose.
Since Rose had made the mistake of freeing Balsaad in her dreams, she goes to kill him in order to make amends for all the death and destruction he’s causing. Rose is accompanied by her two dogs, Euclid and Cleo, who Rose can understand thanks to her Dreaming ability. As they go to face Balsaad, she is met by the Great Red Dragon, who tells her that if she kills Balsaad, there will be an imbalance in the Dreaming, and that Rose must slay the first living being she sees after Balsaad is dead in order to fix the balance. Rose fights and temporarily incapacitates Balsaad, but ends up knocked out and approached by the Lord of the Locusts in her dreams. The Locust tries to tempt her into helping free him, but then Briar angrily appears, interrupting his attempts to corrupt Rose and says she’ll kill both him and Rose for favoring her sister over her… She then immediately realizes who she’s mouthing off to and meekly begs him not to leave her.
While the Locust believes the ritual can be accomplished by Briar and Rose working together, Briar says she can accomplish it with Balsaad and reminds the Locust that he promised her she could kill her sister. Yeah, turns out Briar has hated Rose her entire life for the perceived favoritism she gets from their parents and subjects, and for years she’s wanted to leave her in the Dreaming to wither and die. The Locust relents and Briar immediately tries to kill Rose only for Rose to wake up and kill Balsaad. So now Briar has lost both prospects to free the Locust. Whoops. As punishment for her failure the Locust prematurely ages her into a withered crone. Rose sees her, and, since she’s the first person she saw after slaying Balsaad, prepares to kill her. Unfortunately, Briar plays on Rose’s pity and claims the Locust was controlling her actions to manipulate Rose into killing the second living she sees… which just so happens to be her dog, Cleo. The prequel ends with a tormented Rose being hailed as a hero and declared the new crown princess.
Despite her sister’s mercy, Briar continued to be a double agent for the Lord of the Locusts during the Great War between Rat Creatures and the Old Kingdom which ended with the fall of the royal family. When the Rat Creatures attacked Atheia, the capital city of the Valley, Briar volunteered to lead her family to safety out of the burning city. Unfortunately, she was only doing this to get a chance to snatch her five-year-old grand-niece, Thorn, so she could use her in a ritual to resurrect the Locust. Briar betrayed the Queen and King—her niece and nephew-in-law—leading to their deaths, but not before Rose escaped with Thorn and the King killed Briar, cutting her in half with an abandoned scythe. Unfortunately for the world, that wasn’t the end of Briar’s evil as the Locust resurrected her and she’s continued plotting to free him ever since. She also took the same scythe that killed her as her own signature weapon.
Twelve years pass and Briar has kept knowledge of her resurrection a secret. She’s known as a rogue Venu called the Hooded One, and has amassed an army of Rat Creatures under the command of their ruler, Kingdok. As she gathers her forces, Briar finds an omen and believes it to mean that "the one who bears the star on his chest" is a Veni-Yan-Cari that can help her perform the ritual to free the Locust, and she sends her Rat Creatures out to find the one who matches her description. The "one who bears the star"? That’s Phoney Bone, who has no magical power that he’s aware of and has no clue who this hooded nut-job is. Briar learns of Fone Bone’s presence at Gran’ma Ben’s farm and sends her army of Rat Creatures to kill him to lure his cousin out, but they fail thanks to Gran’ma Ben being a primo ass-kicker and the Great Red Dragon intervening. With blatant attacks out of the question for the time being, Briar opts for other methods to get the Star Bearer.
Time passes, shenanigans ensue, and Briar and the Lord of Locusts build up their army. During their talks, the Locust believes that Briar is up to her old tricks, trying to capture Phoney because he’d be the weaker partner in their pairing and she can remain favorite. The Locust himself prefers Thorn for the ritual since she is a proven Veni-Yan-Cari. Briar makes some token attempts to corrupt Thorn in her dreams, but convinces the Locust to let her use Phoney and the Locust agrees but swears she’ll come to a painful death if she messes up again. Briar has also been sending her army of Rat Creatures out to attack farms and villages. The village of Barrelhaven is one such place destroyed, and the refugees seek shelter at Old Man’s Cave with the Disciples of Venu. While out scouting, Lucius Down—who’s followed Rose into exile—is distracted by the Hooded One, who takes off her hood to reveal her younger face. Disbelieving that his old lover is alive, Lucius is distracted in a critical moment, allowing her army to ambush his soldiers.
Briar finally captures Phoney and Thorn and tries to recruit Phoney over to her side while he insists that he’s not who he thinks he is. It’s then that Briar reveals the omen that’s led her to believe Phoney is the powerful sorcerer she thinks he is… His mayoral campaign balloon, which says "Phoncible P. Bone will get you". The sign is torn though, so it misses the rest of the line: "will get your vote." That hilarious moment aside, Briar doesn’t believe him and tries to sacrifice him in the ritual instead. Rose arrives in the nick of time to save Phoney and Briar reveals her true identity to her sister. Briar also reveals Thorn, who appears dead. Rose tells her that she miscalculated and that Thorn is the only one powerful enough to free the Locust. The Locust, pissed off at Briar for failing him and seemingly killing the only other person who could free him, kills her by removing the locusts holding her together, and uses those locusts to try to steal Thorn’s soul. Fone Bone intervenes and Thorn awakens, the Locust having failed, and collapses the mountain around everyone. It seems like Briar is dead for good… for approximately 13 seconds, because the Locust realizes he has no other options and resurrects Briar again to serve him. Turns out, when the Locust tried to steal Thorn’s soul, she managed to tear off a portion of his, and now both she and Fone Bone have a Soul Fragment of his inside them. Now the Locust needs Briar to go after them.
Now, while the ritual to free the Locust outright was a botch, it wasn’t a total disaster for him. Though performed incorrectly, the ritual was enough to cause an imbalance in the Dreaming, allowing more of the Locust’s power to leak out and threaten the world. It caused the creation of Ghost Circles, invisible pieces of the Dreaming where there’s "no shape or form, only void and nothingness." People who go into a Ghost Circle disappear and exist in a tortured state between life and death. Had Briar succeeded in unleashing the Locust, the world would turn into a ghostly netherworld under the Locust’s control. Now Briar is tasked with spreading more fear throughout the Valley, which can tip the balance of the Dreaming further and free the Locust.
Briar tracks Thorn and her friend, Fone Bone, down and reveals that she was the one who betrayed Thorn’s parents to their deaths. When Fone Bone tries to defend Thorn, Briar realizes Fone is strong in the Dreaming, like Thorn, and, still not wanting to share the limelight with her grand-niece, tries to kill her and take Fone for the ritual instead, but they manage to escape her. Briar and the Locust next set their sights on Atheia, the capital of the Old Kingdom.
Briar meets with the General leading the men of Pawa, who have joined her army. When he asks what happened to the elite warriors he sent to help her attack Old Man’s Cave, Briar says his warriors were indeed impressive… but she was done with them. The General attacks her but Briar gets his scythe beneath the man’s neck. The General says he wanted to rule the Valley, and is terrified that Briar actually wants to destroy it. Briar responds by decapitating him and appointing his cowed second-in-command in-charge. When her army arrives at Atheia, she parleys with Lord Tarsil, a rogue Venu who considered dragons pure evil and was mutilated after picking a fight with them. He’s since taken control of the city, outlawed dragon worship, and refuses to surrender to Briar’s army. Briar responds by glamouring her face to look like Tarsil’s old, handsome one, shocking him long enough for Briar to bisect him with her scythe. She then commands her army to sack the city. At the same time, the Lord of the Locusts regains possession of Mim’s body, and flies to Atheia to destroy it.
As this is happening, Rose and Fone Bone are making their way through Tanen Gard, the ancient burial ground of the dragons. The ghost of Thorn’s mother has made contact with her and passed along a message: Seek the Crown of Horns. The Crown of Horns is a Cosmic Keystone, the balancing point of both the physical world and the dreaming-world. By touching it with a piece of the Locust’s soul in her body, Thorn is able successfully destroy the Lord of the Locusts. At the exact same time as that happens, Briar and Rose are having their final clash. Lucius arrives just in time to hold Briar back from delivering the killing blow to Rose, but when Thorn and Fone Bone touch the Crown of Horns, the magical backlash of the Locust’s death kills Briar—who was kept alive by the Locust—and Lucius who was restraining her. Meanwhile, touching the Crown of Horns woke up all the dragons, and they Zerg Rush the possessed Mim and carry her underground, removing the threat to the Valley.
Is the Hooded One heinous by the standards of the story?
Yes, Briar sets the standard for the series. While the Lord of the Locusts is the bigger threat, he’s sealed away and is completely dependent on her to get anything done. She has personal deeds—her victims and attempted victims include her sister, her niece and nephew-in-law, her grandniece and her lover, Lucius—and grandiose—trying to cause The End of the World as We Know It. Coupled with her crimes in the prequel, where she causes a blood bath in Oak Bottom, I think she surpasses the standards. Especially since, though the comic gets darker over time after its comedic beginnings, the villains aren’t exactly excessive in their evil. In fact, even as it gets darker its still relatively tame, with only a few moments of shocking violence—such as the aforementioned decapitation and bisection.
Kingdok leads the Rat Creatures, and boasts about eating Thorn's mother alive, but he admits in the final volume that he’s been reduced to little more than a puppet or a slave for the Hooded One and the Lord of Locusts. Both he and his subjects were actually fine obeying the treaty by staying out of the Valley but when Briar came, they were all terrified of the Locust’s power and had no choice but to obey his servant. The Pawans just want to rule the Valley and their leader is terrified to find out that Briar intends on destroying it. Tarsil is fanatic in his beliefs that dragons are evil and wants to burn Thorn at the stake for her connection to them, but he never really does anything bad onscreen. The Lord of the Locusts himself is—and I’m not using the trope as an insult—a Generic Doomsday Villain. He wants into the waking world but we’re never told why other than he was "unhappy." He lends Briar power but he’s totally dependent on her and others for his freedom.
Does the Hooded One have any sympathetic, redeeming or mitigating qualities?
There’s nothing redeeming about her at any rate. She doesn’t love anyone since, as mentioned before, she tried to kill her sister, her niece and nephew-in-law, her grandniece, and the man she’d seduced, Lucius. The fact that she was going to unleash the Locust on the world and lead the Rat Creatures in attacking her own kingdom as a young woman carries the implication that she was going to kill her parents too, but this is never confirmed outright. She’s a Psycho Supporter for the Lord of the Locusts, but in a Thomas Eichhorst kind of way, as a means of making herself feel special. When he’s free he’ll need a mortal vessel and she wants it to be herself, essentially making herself an immortal god being. She keeps delaying his release when she has options available since she wants to make sure she’s the strongest person in the pairing so she's the best option for him. She only begrudgingly tries to corrupt Thorn to the Locust’s side and once she finds someone else who can accomplish the same goal but is weaker than her—Fone Bone—she immediately goes back to trying to kill her. Likewise she could’ve used Rose to free the Locust decades earlier, but she was so jealous of her sister, she couldn’t bear the thought of "sharing" the Locust with her. When she sees him trying to literally seduce Rose, Briar acts like a jilted lover and claims she’ll kill both of them. But… again… she immediately realizes who she’s talking to and begs him not to leave her. Heck, she even had the opportunity to free the Locust with Balsaad, but when he flatout asks her if they should try while the moon is right, Briar responds: "There will be other moons, Balsaad. Live a little – before we become immortal." Then she sends him to kill her sister and her dogs.
As for sympathetic qualities, I don’t find much there either. Briar is insanely jealous of her little sister, who is much more popular amongst their subjects than she is. Briar also claims that Rose is their parent’s favorite and resents that they’ll pass her over as queen because her Dreaming Eye is blind… The problem with all of that is that her problems are all her own fault. Her Dreaming Eye isn’t blind. She’s one of the most powerful Veni-Yan-Cari in millennia and she’s purposefully keeping that a secret to hide her connection with the Lord of the Locusts because, and I quote, "it makes [her] feel like the smartest person in the whole world." She could be Queen but she’d rather keep her connection with the local equivalent of Satan a secret. Also, Briar is shown as a colossal Jerkass as a young adult, treating everyone with cold contempt while Rose just treats them kindly, so her jealousy over her sister’s popularity with people seems less reasonable and more common sense that people don’t want to associate with jerks. Even Briar’s parents are displayed as nothing but loving and supportive of her. They don’t want to choose Rose over her but since connection to the Dreaming is crucial to ruling, it’s implied they feel they have no choice. Even Rose, whom she hates, obviously loves her, but Briar wants to murder her regardless and—at the bare minimum—overthrow her parents.
As for any mitigating qualities, there is one and it’s kind of a big deal so I saved it for last. During the last volume Briar tells Rose that the Lord of the Locusts has been whispering in her ear since she was a little girl. A series of single-panel flashbacks in Rose shows that the Locust has been speaking with her since she was literally a baby. This is the one thing that made me hesitate so long on proposing her. A good argument can be made that her agency is impaired because an Ancient Evil acted like the devil on her shoulder her entire life, conditioning her to be his servant… But where this argument falls apart for me is how this excuse is never portrayed as a tragedy.
Briar is never portrayed as a sympathetic or tragic figure, just a selfish brat who’s Driven by Envy. Briar had everything that she could ever ask for, she could’ve even been Queen if she revealed the truth about her connection to the Locust, but she willingly refused to tell anyone who might’ve helped her. Not her parents, who, from their brief appearance, clearly loved her and were conflicted over choosing whether her or Rose would be Queen. Not her sister, who looked up to her. Not the Disciples of Venu or the dragons who know all about the Dreaming and have told her exactly what the Lord of the Locusts is and what his return will achieve. One flashback has her as a squalling baby who’s upset her little sister is being fed before her, and that’s exactly what she is in the present. Despite looking like an ancient crone, she’s really a petulant baby who hasn’t gotten over imagined slights and will destroy the world to make herself feel special. She may have had an uphill battle to resist the Locust as a child but there is zero indication that she ever tried, and blatant evidence that she revels in the death and destruction she causes.
Conclusion?
Personally, I think she counts. I can understand if others think the Locust’s influence makes her agency too questionable, but the way I see it is that while he directed her towards the path of evil, she wholeheartedly embraced it on her own. Most of her problems were her own fault and despite her master’s influence she defies him multiple times for her own self-interest.
edited 5th Feb '18 10:01:38 AM by OccasionalExister
Briar. The agency made me hesitate a bit, but considering she deliberately passed over opportunities to free her master? Yeah, she still has some agency.
And that Freudian Excuse falls apart as it seems all on her.

Was rereading Xmen and one thing about Mr Sinister is that it's heavily implied that he DID genuinely love his son Adam (when Apocalypse is making his pitch to the hellfire club he turns on him because he wonders "Would my adam have a place in his world" and when the heroes are begging him to tell them what they need the thing that gives Essex the motivation to do so is when they say "think of the children." implying that it was thinking about Adam that motivated him.)
Hell the entire reason he went down a dark road was grief over his son's death
As for Gottfried....in the films the bastard counts. We see him directly encourage Martin at one point and we see the effects of his cruelty in the books so I'm comfortable keeping the prick.
Also late
to Sargeras. Yeah he had good intentions but the torture of Argus, the fact that his invasions make worlds unable to have life and his final fuck you of attempting to kill Azeroth mean that he's kinda lost sight of his goals even if he doesn't think he has
edited 5th Feb '18 12:45:29 AM by LordYAM