During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Talked this over with Lighty, who told me in one of the Wishmaster films, there's a Djinn, who falls in love, so the bit from the writeup on the CM one from the first two films being of an Always Chaotic Evil race is incorrect. Fixing the info:
- Wishmaster: The Djinn from the first two films sees people as nothing but vermin and toys for his sick amusement. Most of the wishes he grants result in people suffering a Cruel and Unusual Death. He blows up an airplane and kills everyone on board just to kill one woman. Every soul he reaps he places in a hell-like dimension for eternal torture. In the second film, he sets out to trap one thousand mortals in this plane of eternal suffering. And his ultimate goal is to turn the Earth into a place of perpetual death, destruction, pain, and fear by releasing his fellow Djinn.
Edit: To be honest, it's not the greatest writeup in the first place. I haven't seen the movie but I or someone else if they want can take a stab at a rewrite.
edited 29th Jan '18 12:31:18 PM by 43110
Wasn't Matt Engarde a borderline Never Again case? I don't know how many times he's brought up and no new info has been given so far. I still think he counts: he drives a woman to suicide (wasn't probably his initial intention to do so but got the kicks anyway which isn't disqualifying), hired an assassin to murder his rival, created a video material to blackmail Shelly de Killer and had de Killer take Maya a hostage so that Phoenix could get him a not guilty verdict. Last but not least, he even tried to pin this whole crime on Adrian who was already suicidal to begin with.
I'd say that counts given that AA series don't have that high morality bar when compared to some other works. Someone like Alita Tiala or even Morgan Fey don't come close to him and I'd say the lack of resources is the case in this one. Paul Atishon has a watered down rapsheet when compared to Engarde and the latter easily surpasses most (although not all) AA villains. His zero lack of empathy and Freudian Excuse doesn't help either.
When I personally compare Engarde to other CM candidates from the AA universe, I'd say his paranoid inability to trust anyone (hence the name) is what defines his heinousness as unique. He's just that much of a textbook sociopath in the same vein as Phantom.
edited 29th Jan '18 10:40:47 PM by Kookosbanaani
Here's another one:
What's the work?
Devil May Cry: The Animated Series is an anime based on... what else? Devil May Cry. It starts with Dante being tasked by his agent to do a job, looking after a young girl: Patty Lowell, who is allegedly heir to a massive fortune. Teaming up with her, the duo go on a series of episodic adventures, occasionally teaming up with full human demon hunter, Lady and a reformed demon who was formerly in service to Mundas, Trish. While the format of the show is mostly episodic, as I said, the two part finale provides some welding to previous stroylines. In it, a weak demon summons the power of a great demon named Abigail in the hopes of using the power to rule the demon world and wipe out the human one. A great example of From Nobody to Nightmare and our candidate today: let's meet Sid.
Who is Sid? What has he done?
Although for much of the show Dante treats him as little more than an annoyance, Sid proves himself not only a coward but also thoroughly vile. Trying to kill the child-aged Patty in the first episode, he only backs off when Dante threatens to kill him. In his next handful of appearances, Sid does nothing more than try and kill Dante from time-to-time until episode 10. Needing artefacts for his ritual to summon Abigail, Sid manipulates two demon brother in fighting Dante, knowing it will result in their deaths and caring nothing when they both fall. Killing a man named Simon to wear his skin because of his friendship with Patty's mother, Nina, Sid seeks the necklace as the final piece to complete his ritual.
In the two-part finale, Sid forces Patty to activate the necklace's power by threatening her mother's life. As the portal to Hell opens, Sid declares he will use his newfound power to rule the demon world, using Abigail's power to seemingly fatally wound Dante before taking a new form and spamming the world with waves of demons to wipe out humanity. Trying to kill the defenceless Patty while she tries to wake up Dante, Sid summons thousands of demons to attack the city. Unfortunately for Sid, he's pathetic no matter what form he takes and after Patty frees Dante, he destroys his new form, leaving him to cower and beg for his life before Dante, finally sick of the lesser demon's bullshit, puts a bullet in his skull.
Heinousness?
The anime has a (fairly dubious) connection with the game series but even taking it into account, Sid, even as the closest thing the show has to a Big Bad, spends much of the show as the lowest of the low in terms of demonic hierarchy, so weak he can't even create a human form. His goals, by comparison, are the conquering of one world and annihilation of another.
Mitigating factors?
None. Demons have full agency, with Trish being an ally to Dante and another falling in love with a human woman and living a pacifistic lifestyle. While Sid in one episode hires Dante to kill another demon, this is out of cowardice and getting an enemy in the way of his goals gone. Finally, he tries to bitch about his lot as a weak lesser demon but Dante explains to him that his shitty lot in life is due to his own vile choices.
Verdict
Keep.
edited 29th Jan '18 3:51:52 PM by 43110
Fucking—I swear I thought you said Devilman, not Devil May Cry. I need to get that anime off my brain. >__<
Sid.
Sid. Boy, talk about the opposite tier as Chris Ayres's other CM Frieza.
I agree with Kooko. Engarde has already been discussed in the past multiple times. I myself refuted the arguments against him on this page
in a previous discussion. See posts 44718 and 44720.
Okay guys! Round #3 of discussing candidates from works missed last year! So first we had a villain with an embarrassing costume/design. Then we had a villain from an embarrassing movie. And now we got a villain with an embarrassing name. But hey. Least he's played by Frank Grillo.
Who Is He?
"Big Daddy" (oh boy >__>) is the Big Bad of the Chinese film Wolf Warrior II. He leads a group of mercenaries known as Dylan Corps, and his crew are working for the Red Scarf rebel army located in Africa.
What Has He Done?
Sometime after the events of the first movie, Big Daddy and the Dylan Corps crew kidnapped and seemingly killed Long Xiaoyun, Leng Feng's fiancée.
Anyway, when Big Daddy's mercenaries first appear, they've already taken over the Prime Minister's palace. Roach demands to know the location of a guy named Dr. Chen, and when the Prime Minister refuses to talk, he kills him, and the mercenaries execute all the other hostages in the building. Big Daddy himself appears shortly after talking to his employer about Dr. Chen and how four VIPs "disappeared." He walks over to one of four hostages on their knees, and the hostage reveals Dr. Chen's location. The hostages are executed seconds later. Sometime after, the mercenaries show up at the hospital Dr. Chen is at. As they begin interrogating the staff, Dr. Chen tries to stab Bear (these are fantastic names), and Athena kills him in self-defense. The mercenaries and rebels try to kill Leng Feng when he arrives and starts shooting up the place, but he escapes alongside Dr. Rachel Smith and a young girl named Pasha.
Afterwards, General Inuwa, Big Daddy's employer, shows up at the hospital to berate him over Dr. Chen. Roach drags his corpse to the General, and Big Daddy tells him "You found him." Big Daddy observes footage of Pasha getting medical shots before uncovering information about Leng Feng. Moments later, Big Daddy's men toss grenades into the hospital and kill the remaining civilians and staff inside. Later, the mercenaries discover Feng at a factory and attack, killing some of the workers and guards inside. They almost kill Feng, but General Inuwa orders them to return to base. Begrudgingly, he does. Furious over Big Daddy killing Chinese civilians (which Inuwa does not want, because he needs them to gain political power), he starts screaming at him for screwing up his operation. Big Daddy immediately stabs him in the throat, and his mercs gun down all the rebels in the base before "promoting" some random officer to be in charge of the rebels. The mercs head back to the factory and take everyone hostage, longing to find and torture Feng to death. But Feng shows up later and takes down more mercenaries and rebels. Soon after, many hostages are rescued via helicopter sent by the United Nations and are flown to safety.
Except no. The helicopter is shot down, and those who survive the crash are forced to flee back into the factory. Big Daddy's mercs and the rebels engage in a tank battle against Feng and two Chinese factory workers, and Feng gets the upper hand. Another shootout commences after the tanks are disabled, and the heroes are wounded while the rebels start to callalously gun down the civilians fleeing for their lives. Eventually, Feng and Big Daddy get into a vicious fist-fight, which ends with Big Daddy getting the upper hand. However, Feng subdues Big Daddy using a silver bullet he keeps around his neck, stabbing him multiple times with it. Even as Big Daddy bleeds out on the ground, he just smirks at Feng, before he plunges the bullet into Big Daddy's skull.
None.
Mitigating Factors?
Nope. The rebels officer that was "promoted" was done mostly so Big Daddy would still have the rebels on his side. Big Daddy and the rebels also care more about kidnapping Pasha, not killing her, because it's revealed later on that she's immune to Lamanla, a virus that's currently plauging the country. Since the people have lost faith in the government, basically, anyone who takes Pasha will have the power to take over the country. It's also revealed in a post-credit scene that Long Xiaoyun was actually not killed, for some unknown reason. But given how Big Daddy taunted Feng during the fist-fight by smugly saying "she's pretty," I doubt she was spared because he had some change of heart.
Pass.
Heinous Standard Issues?
So the heinous standard is a little high in the franchise, and there's a third film on the way. I went back and rewatched (chunks of) the first movie to remember the villains from that film. The first movie opens with a drug-smuggling gang engaged in a shootout that leads to a couple Chinese soldiers getting killed. The Big Bad in the first movie, Min Deng, is responsible for drug, human, and weapons trafficking, but except for the first scene, none of this is shown onscreen. He has a band of mercenaries massacre several Chinese soldiers and police officials so he won't get arrested, and later sends said mercenaries to hunt down Leng Feng for revenge of killing his brother. Deng doesn't count, because it's repeatedly shown that he did care for his brother. The leader of said mercs, Tomcat, has a huge body count too (many of which are Chinese soldiers), but just about everything he's doing are on Deng's orders. And unlike Big Daddy, he seems to have some kind of relationship and/or respect for his employer (he attended Deng's brother's funeral), and even acts chummy with his fellow mercenaries. Big Daddy, meanwhile, outright murdered his employer and doesn't care in the slightest when his team is slowly picked off. At best, he gets aggravated over Feng's resistance.
As for this film, there's a scene straight from Blood Diamond where dozens of rebels attack a large village and slaughter dozens of civilians and soldiers. It is not fully confirmed if Big Daddy was responsible for said attack or if it was General Inuwa. Let's just assume the latter, because when the Chinese military shows up, they immediately stop firing. If Big Daddy was there, he would've gunned everyone down with no hesitation.
That being said, the execution of the VIPs—including the Prime Minister—the execution of at least 47 medical workers and civilians, attacking a factory full of civilians, shooting down a chopper full of civilians, attacking a factory full of civilians again, trying to kidnap a child for the sake of controlling an African nation currently dealing with an outbreak—that was all on Big Daddy.
Final Verdict?
Not sure. Little iffy when it comes to the heinous standard of the franchise. I'll let you guys decide.
edited 29th Jan '18 6:30:17 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.I'd give a weaker yea to Big Daddy.
Honestly, I really and have always thought Engarde's more of a Hate Sink than a true CM and I think the dude's clearly outheinoused by many, many other people in the franchise. A lot of the mentality towards keeping him seems mostly based on the fact that he's a loathsome bastard with no redeeming qualities — which is only one half of the qualification. Karma's worse, Hawthorne is worse, I'd argue even Redd is worse at this rate. All of them match him in despicable, visceral cruelty and all of them topple him when it comes to victim count.
We've been going in circles with him over a course of years. Either we cut him and be done with it or resolve him now and never bring him up again.
edited 29th Jan '18 5:53:48 PM by Scraggle
Sid and tentative
to Big Daddy.
I still don't think Engarde quite makes the cut, he is pretty bad but I don't think it's quite enough. He may not have access to many resources but he's still at a comparable level to Dahlia who blows him out of the water. Nothing he does is particularly unique for the franchise and I just don't think he stands out. This is a series with 7 other Complete Monsters, he has to compete with all of them and I don't think he can match any of them.
edited 29th Jan '18 5:55:08 PM by TommyFresh

edited 29th Jan '18 11:51:00 AM by DemonDuckofDoom