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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#107251: Jan 27th 2018 at 2:50:54 PM

[tup] Leo Dekkom

edited 27th Jan '18 2:51:06 PM by MenInGreyToBlak

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#107252: Jan 27th 2018 at 2:52:26 PM

[tup] to Walden,Dekkom,Alfred And Funnyman

@Tyk Also, Interesting pfp to say at least tongue Where is it from hehe

edited 27th Jan '18 2:53:05 PM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#107255: Jan 27th 2018 at 3:02:03 PM

@Scrags: Well he is played by Ed Harris. Thought it was kinda neat how they made Andy Garcia the President who turned out to be the good guy all along.

@Elfen: DEVILMAN crybaby. Binged the whole anime in one sitting last night (and understandably had an existential crisis afterwards). The moment I saw that anime, I knew damn well I was gonna replace my pfp with that grinning face.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#107256: Jan 27th 2018 at 3:03:40 PM

He would be Ed Harris's second at least.

edited 27th Jan '18 3:04:11 PM by ACW

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#107258: Jan 27th 2018 at 3:08:01 PM

[tup] Alfred and Dekkom.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
#107260: Jan 27th 2018 at 3:44:24 PM

[up][up][up][up]The brings up an interesting question, which actor has the highest CM performances?

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#107261: Jan 27th 2018 at 3:50:21 PM

@Utter Koala Iirc Mark Hamill was one. And thanks to Scraggs and Lighty. Richard Lynch will be the most profilic actors to play C Ms

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#107264: Jan 27th 2018 at 4:23:03 PM

Hey, Spongebob himself has one.

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#107265: Jan 27th 2018 at 4:23:56 PM

[up] Who does Tom Kenny play who's a Monster?

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#107266: Jan 27th 2018 at 4:25:02 PM

[up] Anti Monitor from Green Lantern....Special thanks to miraculous for that

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#107267: Jan 27th 2018 at 4:25:34 PM

Anti-Monitor

[nja]

edited 27th Jan '18 4:25:40 PM by ACW

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#107268: Jan 27th 2018 at 5:10:54 PM

[up] Gotcha.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#107269: Jan 27th 2018 at 5:36:41 PM

By the way, if anyone wants to PM me about The Death Cure now? Feel free to do so.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#107270: Jan 27th 2018 at 9:27:49 PM

One more for tonight:

What's the work?

Dolan's Cadillac is a film based on the Stephen King novel of the same name. In it, the lives of happily married gradeschool teachers, Tom and Elizabeth Robinson, get uprooted when Elizabeth witnesses a crime and begins getting hunted for a crimelord. When she is tragically killed in a carbombing set up by said crime lord, Tom decides to go beyond the law and take matters into his own hands.

Who is Jimmy Dolan? What has he done?

Introduced orchestrating the shipment of 20 young women into the states, Dolan, for unknown reasons, shoots both of the drivers dead, as well as one of the women when she tries to flee the truck and opens fire on Elizabeth for witnessing his killings. Shutting the other 19 women back in the truck, Dolan is later revealed to have buried it, suffocating all of them. As a warning to Elizabeth, Dolan takes one of the trafficked women, kills her and stitches her finger to her mouth and sews her lips shut, leaving her in Elizabeth's bed as a warning. While arguing about refusing to pay a Chinese supplier, Dolan has one of his mooks savagely tear the tooth out of a Chinese prostitute, before flicking it at the man he was arguing with. We learn Dolan has ties to international crime syndicates, shipping humans in to the states, mostly as sex workers, from around the world and killed the last two witnesses who were going to speak against him. Despite police protection, Elizabeth stupidly gets into her car in the middle of the night, rigging the bomb Dolan's goon had set, killing her and sparking Tom's quest for vengeance.

Talking to his bodyguards, Dolan reveals he wants to ship in 80 people/day, only not doing more out of fear for attracting from border patrol. Dolan is also revealed to force himself on particularly attractive sex workers he gets. When he finds out Tom is tailing him, Dolan has his bodyguard beat Tom down in a washroom, telling Tom he's only not killing him to make him keep living through the pain of what Dolan took from him. En route to make a purchase of child prostitutes from an associate, karma finally catches up with Dolan when Tom traps his Cadillac in a specially designed hole and despite Dolan's pleas, threats and bribes, buries the screaming mob boss alive to suffocate alone.

Heinousness?

This part is no problem, he's a trafficker on an international level who easily catches and uses hundreds, if not, thousands of people and even in the King-verse, as a normal human with just cronies for resources, is handily nasty.

Mitigating factors?

The first is his claim to be helping illegals get into the US. This is obvious bullshit as Dolan forces them to do sex work while he holds their papers as insurance and kills them if they disobey him. Additionally, Dolan is as racist as they come, spouting off profanities about every minority he can think of. No genuine good will here.

The second and more complicated matter is his reaction to the proposal of peddling children. When he gets the stream of the kids he's about to buy. There's a... at least unimpressed look on his face. While this gave me doubt at first, a chat with Scraggle brought up some counterpoints. Firstly, in the film the FBI agent states that they have enough evidence to charge Dolan with trafficking the kids... I'm not sure how, as he doesn't seem to have bought them but the film verse is clearly treating him as compliant. Next up, when bartering with Tom, Dolan makes a quip about the money he's offering Tom as something he was "going to give to children's aid", which sure as hell comes across as a joke about peddling kids. Thirdly, when begging for his life, Dolan tries everything, even writing off killing a henchman whose whining was bothering him as telling Tom he killed the goon who killed his wife, so if Dolan weren't going to go through with the child trafficking, he definitely, definitely would have brought it up here. Finally, Dolan believes his organization is most profitable when they use incredibly beautiful "goddess"-like women, so it's quite likely he simply thinks the kids won't sell as well. All in all, we are never told he won't partake in selling kids and it seems way too probable that even if he wouldn't, it wouldn't be out of the goodness of his heart.

Verdict

Was leaning no until I talked to Scrags but there's too much ambiguity in the end for me to be wholly convinced he really has the kids' interests at heart. Thoughts?

[down] Thanks again, pal! You really helped me form my opinion on this one.

edited 27th Jan '18 9:31:58 PM by 43110

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#107271: Jan 27th 2018 at 9:30:08 PM

For me, on Dolan? Absolutely nothing about this potential standard about kids holds up and every indication seems to be that he gets over his initial repulsion — much like Vaughn from Abduction of Eden.

So, to me? Yes, yes, and yes again.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#107272: Jan 27th 2018 at 9:41:20 PM

I think I'll ditto on what Scraggs said

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED
#107273: Jan 27th 2018 at 10:15:31 PM

While the issue with the kids did make me think as well, I'll agree with the above two statements and give a careful [tup].

Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#107274: Jan 27th 2018 at 10:51:11 PM

Same here with echoing Scraggle. I'm kind of impressed. Seriously Adaptational Villainy as in the short story, Dolan was a mob boss whose only stated crime was murdering Robinson's wife for trying to testify against him. This one was a bit...surprising.

Got a new one now: What's the Work?'

Corridors of Blood is a 1958 horror/drama film starring Boris Karloff....set in 1840, Karloff plays a wealthy old doctor named Thomas Bolton. Bolton is a very kind man and respected surgeon who runs a free clinic for the less fortunate in his spare time. Now, Bolton, to the scorn of his nasty colleague Dr. Blount, seeks to develop a way to remove pain from surgery. Unfortunately, things go bad for Bolton when he's publicly disgraced after an attempt at creating an anesthetic fails. He begins to falter, his hands shaking constantly as he has to be corrected during surgery by his son Jonathan...and he falls into the nasty trap set by our villains...a pair of criminals running a lodge house: Black Ben and his right-hand man, Resurrection Joe.

Who are Black ben and Resurrection Joe?

Ben is a large, black bearded bear of a man while Resurrection Joe is a tall, lanky, scarred Cockney fellow who wears a black cloak and top hat...and is played by Christopher Lee. Now, they call in kindly old Dr. Bolton because one of their lodgers has passed away, isn't that a shame? The guy just up and died of illness. Bolton examines the body and signs the death certificate for them...only to be revealed that Ben and Joe had a scheme to smother him with a pillow, trick Bolton into giving them a clean death certificate and sell the corpse for autopsy to make bank.

Things go south for poor old Bolton as he grows addicted to his own anesthetic gas and begins to act out more, his reputation going down the tubes...and Joe and Ben? Well, with their plan having worked once? They begin luring drunks and other folks to the lodgehouse who won't be missed...then Joe smothers them with a pillow and they sell the corpses again. During one incident, Joe also gets disturbingly close to the waitress Rosa and attempts to rape her. Ben interrupts with his wife Rachel...only for him and Rachel to slut-shame the hell out of Rosa instead. Realizing too many questions will be asked without a legit doctor, they try to entrap Bolton in the scheme by stealing his journal with all his notes and theories. Ben threatens to burn it if Bolton won't start signing death certificates they've already made out.

Bolton then proceeds to sign a pile of blank death certificates in return for being allowed to get the chemicals. Ben agrees and sends Joe with Bolton to his office in the dead of night. The night porter catches them, and before Bolton, who knows the man, can talk him down, Resurrection Joe brutally knifes the man to death, to Bolton's horror.

Now, things have gone south because the scheme was a wee bit half-cocked...it hasn't taken the cops long to notice something is amiss because the handwriting on the death certificates? Well, the inspector goes to Jonathan to ask him to verify his dad's signature...but everything else is in someone else's handwriting. It doesn't take the cops wrong to trace things to Ben's inn and Bolton. Ben and Joe have come to the conclusion that Bolton is now more trouble than he's worth with his erratic issues and drug addiction. Joe decides to smother Bolton when the police arrive. Ben declares 'every man for himself' and flees. Joe attempts to murder Bolton, closing in on him with a knife...he manages to fatally stab the old man, but Bolton seizes a bottle of vitriol/acid and throws it into Joe's face. Ben attempts to flee on the rooftops, but falls to his death, impaled by a fence...an agonized Joe is found by the cops and arrested as Bolton dies, giving Jonathan his notes, having perfected his formula for an anesthetic....the film ends with Jonathan completing a successful, painless surgery in his dad's memory.

Heinousness?

Impressive for a 1958 film...now, Joe is a multiple murderer, an attempted rapist and Ben directs the operation. The two are pretty much partners in the affair while Joe does the dirty work with his beloved Vorpal Pillow. Ben and Joe come up with the scheme of murdering people to have death certificates forged to sell the corpses for cash, which is...rather nasty, especially for the time....and they've got quite the body count with that set of blank death certificates. I'd say pass.

Blount is a standard Jerkass who thinks "pain and the knife are inseparable" and Bolton is...a nice old doctor who's driven further and further into disgrace and an unwilling accomplice to villainy.

Redeeming Qualities?

Resurrection Joe is a definite no. He's a vicious killer and attempted rapist with no real care for other human beings. He and Ben get on fine in a business relationship, but don't display any real sense of human warmth to one another. They do gloat a lot together when their first murder scheme succeeds, Ben gleefully saying how Joe did the murder perfectly.

Now, I should note Ben has a wife named Rachel. She's in on the schemes and just as nasty as Ben is. When Rosa is assaulted by Joe, Rachel gleefully joins in shaming ROSA for the assault. I should note Ben doesn't seem morally opposed, just annoyed at Joe for causing a scene during work hours. When Ben dies, Rachel sees his corpse and is clearly aggrieved...thing is, when the cops come calling, Ben declares "every man for himself" and tries to flee with no concern for Rachel. Only guy he tries to escape with is Joe and that's just luck of the draw as they pick the same room to hide out in together rather than affection.

Conclusion?

Resurrection Joe is an easy keep. Ben I lean yea.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#107275: Jan 27th 2018 at 11:03:43 PM

[tup] to Dolan, Ben, and Joe

edited 27th Jan '18 11:03:54 PM by G-Editor

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