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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#107051: Jan 25th 2018 at 1:45:11 PM

I noticed the Lore discussion over the page. I've read the link back to the original discussion and I've read the current CM write-up.

Lore doesn't count as a CM. The big problem with him isn't whether or not we should weigh up whether he genuinely cares for either Dr. Soong or Data or his Alas, Poor Villain fate against the monstrous deeds he committed during his existence. His problem is agency.

Something went wrong with his design. His programming went wrong, leaving him twisted. Dr. Soong explains that he couldn't figure out what the error was or how to fix it. In the end, the simplest solution was to shut down Lore and create Data. He claims he spent the rest of his life wondering what had gone wrong in Lore's design.

Lore did not have emotions, although he had a basic mimicry of some very simple emotion-esque patterns; his broken programming did therefore sometimes make it seem as though he did. When Dr. Soong created an emotion chip, he created only one, for Data. Dr. Soong did apologise to Lore and told him that, had he known Lore had been reactivated, he'd have created an emotion chip for Lore, too. As it was, the chip he did create was not designed to handle Lore's programming and Dr. Soong warned that would not work correctly for him. Lore stole it anyway. Combine an incompatible emotion chip with broken programming and a flawed design, and you end with the twisted, unstable android Lore.

His agency is a huge issue due to the problem being a design flaw that was impossible to correct and which made it impossible for him to ever be an integrated, well-adjusted, stable member of society. Since even his creator couldn't fix him, there were only two solutions: de-activating him or destroying him.

edited 25th Jan '18 1:52:06 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#107052: Jan 25th 2018 at 1:46:14 PM

Based on new information, cut Lore

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#107053: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:03:09 PM

I've been waiting to see Ghaul being EP and I'm more than happy to give him a [tup]

Also [tup] to Wat and Red Skull.

I'm going to abstain on Lore for the moment

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#107054: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:08:29 PM

How much more do we need? This is a clear cut "willing to overlook mitigating qualities because he's really bad" case for keeping. He's a cut, so let's cut him.

Bad agency and potential redeeming qualities? It sucks the guy's gotta go, but he's gotta go.

edited 25th Jan '18 2:18:06 PM by Lightysnake

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#107055: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:21:04 PM

Yeah, at this rate... I think the mitigating factors have been clearly outlined. I'm just gonna say cut now then.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#107056: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:29:27 PM

[tup] Wat Tambor, Ghaul, Sally, Red Skull

Cut Lore

edited 25th Jan '18 2:32:14 PM by xie323

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#107057: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:33:28 PM

Alright, if Lore gets cut, he gets cut. I will not cry into my beer over it. I do think it was fair to debate many of the points brought up about him and I do not regret doing so.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#107058: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:34:47 PM

Lightysnake: I'm kind of insulted that you think that I'm intentionally ignoring Lore's agency problems due to how bad of a person he is. That's not the case. At all. I don't particularly have any strong feelings for him either way: I didn't give his programming much thought and it slipped my mind: I haven't watched his arc in a while.

I'd lean towards a cut, but I really want to see what Overlord has to say before finalizing it since he's the big Trek guy.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#107059: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:36:43 PM

I'm willing to see it, but everything I'm reading and hearing now is that this guy is one big ball of qualities that'd be cuts if taken on their own.

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#107060: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:39:32 PM

Been reading the Lore debate, and I wasn't going to weigh in due to my own lack of knowledge of the work. But considering the points that have neen brought up, I'm leaning cut. Agency seems extremely questionable, based on the arguments presented. I'm open to an EP to clear things up, though.

edited 25th Jan '18 2:56:40 PM by JoeBlitz

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#107061: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:43:24 PM

[up] Nice profile pic man.

I'm gonna say... keep Lore. Just cuz I'm a nice gu—- okay, no. I just think that he should be kept. That's all.

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#107062: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:48:37 PM

[up] Thank you. One of my favorite Complete Monsters from one of my favorite works.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#107063: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:50:03 PM

The thing is human memory is not perfect and I admit to forgetting about the agency issue with Lore, I have not re watched all of TNG in the past few years. That may be a big issue here, I will say Lore understands morality enough to be manipulative and can hide his true nature from others until he is ready to strike (he also deactivated Data's ethics program to make him into a psychopath), but that may not be enough for him to have real agency, I would have to re watch the episodes to make a proper determination.

But let's face it, no one is perfect and people will make mistakes on this thread, there is no shame in that and I do not think that deserves harsh criticism.

edited 25th Jan '18 2:55:10 PM by Overlord

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#107064: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:53:25 PM

[up][up][up] You have a defense for your stance? It's one thing to want to keep a villain up because there's still some contestable factors, but it seems like you're leaning to a keep on personal preference even in spite of very, very clear disqualifiers. I don't want to force you to vote one way or anything, but voting to keep a villain solely on feeling without factoring in criteria isn't how this works.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#107065: Jan 25th 2018 at 2:53:31 PM

Could we at least wait for an EP before making a definitive conclusion?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#107066: Jan 25th 2018 at 3:01:16 PM

Nah, no issues to you, overlord. You’re a very good contributor here

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#107067: Jan 25th 2018 at 3:19:57 PM

Does Briggs have enough votes? And if so, just put him at the end of the Lit section on the page?

Also, for Skull, he probably has enough votes (11 plus myself), but more are always welcome. BTW, the nuking of Detroit and the camps for the "deviants"? Not offscreen.

edited 25th Jan '18 3:26:08 PM by ACW

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#107068: Jan 25th 2018 at 3:21:25 PM

Oh, well then, with my ignorance cured, Lore is a cut, though I would not object to a formal EP. But it seems pretty clear now, thanks to Wyldchyld, that he should go.

Thanks for that, by the way.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#107069: Jan 25th 2018 at 3:23:25 PM

Oh, right, Lore. Yeah, he seems like a cut, but I wouldn't object to a full effortpost either.

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#107070: Jan 25th 2018 at 3:36:12 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up] I was just kidding, put me as an abstain since I have no idea who Lore is.

edited 25th Jan '18 3:36:35 PM by MenInGreyToBlak

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#107071: Jan 25th 2018 at 3:50:36 PM

As I've discussed with both beforehand? Easy 'Yes' to Skull and Wat Tambor. Cut Lore.

Speaking of Lazarevic, I've got an image of him to suggest for Image Links...Here's two so as to see which one is better:

And while I'm at it, here's possible ones that are updates to the image of Donald Pierce suggested by MenInGrayToBlack:

Thoughts?

edited 25th Jan '18 3:51:10 PM by Ravok

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#107073: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:00:05 PM

I second AC Ws opinion on Ravok's images

edited 25th Jan '18 4:00:21 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#107074: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:03:59 PM

While it's possible my memory is tricking me, I think I've always held Wyldchyld's position on Lore and moral agency, so absolutely supporting that.

I also have been thinking vaguely about effortposting Dominus Ghaul myself, so [tup] for him and yet another Red Skull.

MenInGreyToBlak V Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
V
#107075: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:07:15 PM

[tup] Image 1 for Lazarevic and image 2 for Pierce.


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