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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#106526: Jan 18th 2018 at 9:33:08 AM

I'd offer to help with Ultimate Reed, but I hate hate hate hate the character and think that going the mile to EP him is, generously speaking, a massive waste of time.

All I gotta say? Good luck.

edited 18th Jan '18 9:34:05 AM by Scraggle

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#106527: Jan 18th 2018 at 9:34:15 AM

[up][up]That was a pretty interesting premise if you ask me....No wonder his entry consist of the likes of Freudian Excuse or Woobie Destroyer of Worlds

@Scraggle And yea....Forgot to say this a long time ago but good luck with your TAO proposal too mate

edited 18th Jan '18 9:35:44 AM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#106529: Jan 18th 2018 at 9:44:25 AM

Ultimate Reed is from what I've heard considered one of the better things of the ultimate marvel verse. Personally after Secret Wars it would have been interesting for him and Doom to go at it; Doom is a better man evil reed is the man he once was.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#106530: Jan 18th 2018 at 9:44:30 AM

[up][up][up] Funny thing is, TAO (45 issues), Helspont (12), and Gamorra (25) add up to 82, less than ONE HALF of Reed. Hell, add Krona's 65 and it's still a bit fewer.

edited 18th Jan '18 9:44:37 AM by ACW

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#106531: Jan 18th 2018 at 9:46:26 AM

I think Helspont was actually closer to the early 20s, but the point still stands. The main reason I haven't been as on top of TAO as I could be is distraction... if I actually focus for a few days and prioritize reading his stuff (or rereading, rather) over all my other projects, I could probably have the EP up in a few days. There's also the fact that the direct ramifications of TAO's actions extend much more than 45 issues, so...

edited 18th Jan '18 9:56:34 AM by Scraggle

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#106532: Jan 18th 2018 at 9:51:29 AM

[up][up]I think krona was jus rewritten rather than a full blown ep.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#106533: Jan 18th 2018 at 10:04:17 AM

[up][up] Huh, I was going by this.

But yeah, TAO seems like a real piece of work.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#106534: Jan 18th 2018 at 10:07:14 AM

@Ravok: Have fun and good luck. Although, considering you're the guy who speed-read Worm, you'll be fine.

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#106535: Jan 18th 2018 at 10:08:27 AM

[tup] Kubal and Manderville.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#106536: Jan 18th 2018 at 10:15:18 AM

Comicvine lists TAO's appearances as in the 80s of issues, but Comicvine can be screwy with what they consider an "appearance" and "issue."

If I'm being honest, effortposting characters is my favorite part of the entire process of this site, so even if Richards is the most poorly-written piece of crap I've ever read, I'll still get SOME modicum of enjoyment out of proposing him, so that'll be cool by me.

And thanks for the well wishes everyone, I'm sure it won't be too dreadfully hard to finish....I think I once read through Worm in about a week at the cost of just a couple hours sleep (Twitch), so....yeah....

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#106537: Jan 18th 2018 at 10:44:41 AM

Yeah, CV also includes compilations of previous appearances and omnibuses and stuff like that as separate appearances... I know Wildstorm had a few of those.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#106539: Jan 18th 2018 at 11:13:38 AM

I think it would be interesting to revisit Ultimate Reed, especially now that the UU is back.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#106540: Jan 18th 2018 at 11:14:49 AM

Zatch Bell anime Zeno is still a [tdown]. Even if he didn't redeem himself in that version, some of his sadder, more vulnerable qualities still got displayed and he seemed to care about Dufort in a way that was sincere (especially in contrast to the likes of Zofis and his relationship with Koko. That was just disgusting on every level.)

edited 18th Jan '18 11:20:48 AM by ANewMan

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#106541: Jan 18th 2018 at 11:27:41 AM

Alright, having agreed on giving this character from 1000 Dolls a post as well... here's Madame Viera.

Who is Madame Viera? What has she done?

Viera is the upper-class brothel keeper of the Dolls and one of the highest-ranking members there, directly under the "King of Hearts" (who doesn't exist and is just a name to keep a semblance of order and authority in the house), serving as the one most directly involved with the operation with Manderville on her payroll. Viera controls the operation by having women taken from all over the world by Manderville and then keeping them in the House for years in forced prostitution, allowing wealthy clients to take and rape them at their leisure for the right price. Viera is also a cold, cold bitch who sadistically abuses the terrified women with full willingness to punish and torture any who speak up, while having any and all loose ends and threats to the operation pursued and violently murdered. Case in point, when Viera shows Fernando his missing girlfriend and Fernando tries to break him out? Viera personally orders him tracked down and ruthlessly murdered while punishing Fernando's girlfriend herself.

Managing much from behind-the-scenes with the occasional cut to the House where Viera shuts down all forms of protest with more punishment and torture, like an ill-fated escape attempt, Viera eventually learns that Armstrong is trying to solve the death of his friend and Manderville isn't doing a very good job of stopping him. Taking matters into her own hands, Viera has her goons kidnap his wife Mary before knocking Armstrong out and giving him her demands, which are simple: come to the syndicate and trade his life for hers, or Mary will be inducted herself into the ranks of the slaves. Viera quickly establishes her cruelty to Mary as she takes another woman (I think the one who tried to escape) and forces them to watch as she has the poor woman stripped and her back brutally flogged into bloody ribbons, smiling the entire while as she oversees it. Unfortunately for her, Armstrong comes with backup and busts the operation, leading to Viera's arrest as the women are liberated.

Any mitigating factors?

No. Not a single one — no excuse, moments of humanity, etc. And for heinousness? Viera sets it for the film. While Manderville has a quality or two that's debatable but ultimately don't hold up, Viera is just a black-hearted, ruthless bitch who's easily the worst character in the movie. Viera's much more hands-on with the sex slaves while torturing them herself and killing off loose ends, forcing the innocent wife of a man to be used as her hostage with the threat of making her a sex slave if his husband doesn't turn himself to the syndicate's clutches. Manderville still counts due to resources and the fact he acts with autonomy, but even he's disposable to Viera and most of the horrible stuff in the film traces back to her as she's by far the most directly involved with managing the operation, with the Queen of Hearts herself not really using a lot of her own ostensible authority and even turning on the syndicate itself on the end, while Viera remains a stone cold sociopath to the very end.

Conclusion?

Keeper. Both Manderville and she I'd say count due to the different tiers they act on, but Viera is easily the worse of the two.

Thoughts?

edited 20th Jan '18 10:29:11 PM by Scraggle

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#106542: Jan 18th 2018 at 11:28:48 AM

While we're in a bit of a lull, here's a question: Anyone who played more than one CM in the same work? This was inspired by Robin Atkin Downes, who played both Annihilus AND Abomination.

If voiceovers count, and assuming they're all in continuity, Sean Schemmel voiced Kodai and Anime!Cyrus.

[nja] And an easier [tup] Viera.

edited 18th Jan '18 11:30:14 AM by ACW

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#106543: Jan 18th 2018 at 11:33:55 AM

[up]Yes. The movies are canon.

So schemmel has 5. Not bad for the guy who plays Goku. I think there's Black Doom, Kodai, Anime Cyrus, Makuta Teridax and Goku Black.

[tup]Viera

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#106545: Jan 18th 2018 at 11:43:50 AM

[tup] Viera.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#106546: Jan 18th 2018 at 11:56:16 AM

Alright, a villain from something of a bit higher quality than what I've been doing lately ...

What's The Work?

Column of Fire is a recent novel by Ken Follett, author of Pillars of Earth and sequel World Without End as the third of the Kingsbridge novels...each novel set in an extended period about a different cast at points in history. The first novel is firmly medieval, set in the Anarchy when England's throne is in flux, before ending with Henry II's reign. The second novel takes place through the reign of Edward III...this one jumps ahead to Elizabethan England and stretches all through to the reign of James I.

Now, the core players of the book are Ned Willery and Margaery Fitzgerald. Ned is from a protestant family, while Margaery's is staunchly Catholic. If you know your history, then you know this is a time in history when the Reformation hit and Henry VIII's burning desire to get laid led to him to reform the Church in England. Consequently, there's been some...upheaval and religious schisms about. France and Spain are more on the Pope's side as staunchly Catholic nations with Protestants persecuted and repressed. In England, they ain't too big on Catholics either...

Okay, so anyways...Ned becomes an agent of the crown, fighting against traitors and plots against her majesty under the eye of Francis Walsingham. Margaery and Ned are deeply in love but are separated due to religious and political differences, while Margaery knows her brother Rollo is a Catholic rebel aimed to subvert the throne of England. Okay, so some of our adventures take us to France, where the religious pressure is really, really rough. A young woman named Sylvie helps run a shop with her family where she, secretly a protestant, helps to translate Bibles into French...a deadly crime in the highly Catholic Paris.

Unfortunately, there's someone else afoot as well. Enter Sylvie's fiancee, the evil Pierre Amaund.

Who is Perre and What hs he done?

A low-born bastard son of a Guise, Pierre grows up in Paris into a cold teenager determined to rise above his station and make his mark in the world, looking for the right opportunities. They find him. Pierre decides to ally himself with the Catholic factions by helping to betray a group of Protestants, resulting in their executions via burning. As a result, Pierre slowly ingratiates himself to the local Duke and Cardinal, who accept him as an agent. Pierre begins to increase his power as he becomes a ruthless agent for the church.

Realizing Sylvie's little operation, Pierre seduces her and eventually becomes engaged to her, but secretly cares nothing for her (and he is virulently misogynistic as well), getting information from her so he can catch and execute more Protestants to climb higher. As the years pass, Pierre leads the persecution and murders of thousands of innocent Protestants without even a twinge of conscience. Now, things break down as Sylvie realizes what he a monster he is, and when he expects to marry a French noblewoman he desires, the Cardinal instead marries him off to a woman of a similar station who's already pregnant from another Guise as to avoid a scandal. A furious Pierre hates his wife who tries to get on with him at first, but the marriage soon breaks don. When her son is born, his wife Odette spitefully names the kid Alain after his real father as a little "fuck you" to Pierre for being awful to her.

....His response? Take the baby, hightail it to the nearest convent, claim the mother is possessed by demons and the child has to be raised under a brand new identity, just to spite Odette. The Cardinal, however is furious and demands Pierre get the kid back, give him back to Odette and raise him. Pierre is forced to comply. He and his stepson Alain despise eachother as a result. During this time, Pierre enters into a conspiracy to supplant the French king if need be, while conniving with Spain to launch a conquest of England where countless innocents could die to allow the domination of the Church.

Pierre finally leads his men after Sylvie after having run afoul of Ned, planning on taking revenge against Sylvie by storming in, having his men gang rape her and kill her himself, which he notes will be the first time he's killed someone with his own hands (offhandedly commenting he must have had thousands killed on his orders)...Sylvie escapes, but another woman named Isabelle is caught by Pierre's men and refuses to give her up, resulting in her stabbed through by one of Pierre's guards, Pierre kicking her angrily as she dies when she refuses to give Sylvie up.

Pierre, now rich and powerful, sees his wife Odette is sick and when they're briefly alone? Smothers her with a pillow. Alain isn't fooled for an instant and furiously swears revenge against Pierre. Pierre then orchestrates the death of a Marchion, due to having a grudge against the man's wife, Louise. His reason? 25 years ago, when a young man in the Duke's service, he attempted a lighthearted joke about both of them being country bumpkins, only for Louise to angrily tell him to watch his place as she felt humiliated by it. Pierre has never gotten over that. As a result? He has Louise taken in as a 'mistress', and rapes her. Louise soon runs away, and Pierre just keeps tabs, knowing she lacks the skills to survive save by prostitution. He proceeds to force her to abase herself and beg him to take her back. He proceeds to humiliate and abuse her on a daily basis with mental, physical and emotional abuse. In one instance, Pierre is expecting a guest and orders Louise to serve them dinner while naked. When she begs him to reconsider, he smirks and says she can wear shoes if she wants.

Things go a bit south for Pierre soon. His little conspiracy is caught by the King, who, upon calls to Paris? Has Pierre's benefactor murdered. Pierre, not having expected such decisive action from the King is terrified and realizes he needs to flee back home, and start molding the Duke's son as a new puppet when he arrives to his chambers to see Louise and Alain. Alain asks where they're going in such a hurry and Pierre briefly thinks he's an idiot for not asking 'why'....only to see Louise suddenly has a dagger in her hand that she slashes his face with and stabs him nonfatally....Pierre realizes exactly why Alain didn't ask why: because he and Louise have been scheming to get rid of Pierre and were part of the conspiracy to expose him to the King with the condition they'd deal with him themselves.

Pierre tries to murder Louise, only to realize Alain has stolen his wheel lock pistol and they're at such a close distance that even Alain, no marksman, can't miss. Pierre is shot through the heart and collapses to the ground, the final thing he ever hears being Louise telling him to go to hell where he belongs.

As for the others? Margaery's asshole husband is killed while Ned marries Sylvie for ten years, until Rollo murders here when she uncovers his identity...Ned and Margaery later marry and Ned helps foil the Gunpowder Treason.

Heinous Standard?

Okay, so each of the Kingsbridge novels has one completely detestable villain. Pillars of Earth had William of Hamleigh, a Serial Rapist and murderer who torments and kills people by the truckload (he's on the list), Ralph Fitzgerald (his brother being Margaery's ancestor) is a rapist and cruel soldier who has the deeds to count, but seems to have a genuine Villainous Friendship with his right-hand man and when he finds out that his rape of a main character has resulted in him having a son named Sam, he genuinely seems to care about the young man and has him pardoned after Sam killed a man in self defense.

Pierre isn't as much a vicious, thuggish bandit as William, but he leads a movement of religious persecution, killing thousands of innocent people in horrible was for the sake of his own career boosting. He's an abusive bastard who murders his wife, and what he does with Louise is just petty sadism for the sake of it. He also tries to engineer a brutal war between England and France for his own benefit while others at least are genuinely devoted to Church and country. Pass.

Mitigting Qualities?

Pierre is ambition defined. He's revolted by Protestants, but really he's motivated less by religious fervor and more by greed and a desire to rise higher and higher in life. He cares nothing for those around him, manipulating or riding them out to his own ends, to be discarded when he gets a better offer. He did have a hard life growing up, but it doesn't begin to excuse all he gets up to.

In addition? What he does to Louise is just because of an off-handed rebuke she gave him that he never got over after twenty-five freaking years. While it's true he doesn't kill Alain when the baby is born, he knows that outright murdering an infant would: A. place his own soul at risk, and B. it's more convenient to get rid of the kid in another way, and a manner that would hurt Odette more knowing her child was still out there and lost to her. Literally only the intervention of the Cardinal prevents this who Pierre cannot disobey and hope to keep any hope of reaching his ambitions.

Conclusion?

Overall, Pierre is just greed, spite and ambition without a conscience. One nasty, brutal package that earns the CM title.

Oh, and yes to the Madame

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#106548: Jan 18th 2018 at 12:00:11 PM

[tup]Pierre

So uh someone complelty spoilered Long's entry on ymmv page of Juken Sentai Gekiranger . I think its fine considering hes a Walking Spoiler but wanted to bring it up here.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#106549: Jan 18th 2018 at 12:00:34 PM

[tup] Kubal, Manderville, Madame and Pierre

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#106550: Jan 18th 2018 at 12:03:19 PM

[up][up] I don't think it matters if it's on the YMMV page.

And yea to Pierre.


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