During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
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We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Alrighty, so...Scraggle, Ravok and I are going to be collaborating on a comic-verse: The Ultraverse. Originally published by Malibu comics, during the 90s comic boom to follow the success of Valiant and Image. Superheroes are calle 'Ultras,' given powers by the mysterious 'Godwheel' of the cosmos. The emphasis was on tight continuity....though when Malibu flagged, Marvel bought the company solely to screw over DC from doing the same. The Ultraverse was canceled, but later introduced as an alternate Marvel earth.
One of the Ultraverse's titles, Solitaire, concerns the titular hero. A street level detective and fighter with a healing factor...Solitaire is Nicholas Lone, son of Anton Lone, one of the most powerful crimelords around. After Nicholas' attempted suicide, Anton saved his son and had nanomachines installed inside his body. Declaring his enmity with his father, Nicholas vowed to use his gifts to end the evil his father caused. Now, in his investigations? One particularly nasty villains sticks out...a deprave arsonist who shuns all society, who views himself as one who destroys beauty: The Degenerate.
Who is the Degenerate?
A tall, thin, gaunt man with white skin, unruly hair and a disturbing grin, the Degenerate's history hasn't been revealed. First entering the story when a fire is lit at the historic Plaza del Rey apartments, Solitaire arrives to save as many innocent lives from the fire. These are part of a string of arson attacks from the Degenerate who leaves a mark behind stating "Tradition Dies-The Degenerate."
The Degenerate has a history of targeting artworks, architecture and anything deemed 'beautiful.' In one case, he specifically targeted a beautiful model, burning her alive with the same messages. Solitaire begins hunting for the Degenerate with an Ultra and secret agent named Serena. At a Bach recital? The conductor's baton catches fire which spreads suddenly to the other performers. Solitaire manages to rescue those at the opera,while the Degenerate watches from a distance after escaping Serena and Soltaire.
When he begins mocking a man an his family, the guy gets angry...especially when the Degenerate snidely implies he molests his own daughter. The Degenerate then grins "oh, don't take me so seriously" and flicks a cigarette at the man to set him up like a torch in front of his family.
Now...returning the following issue? The Degenerate is kidnapping children, or buying them until he has 50, to create his masterpiece....he has another 10 delivered, but one of the boys proves unruly. He then tries to snub out a cigarette on the Degenerate's hand, fascinating him. Deciding to create a 'sidekick,' he takes the kid, naming him Mr. Sparks. He places the other kids in barrels, mocking them about his ensuing plans to take them to the Museum of Art and set them alight while using Mr. Sparks to try to ignite Solitaire and kill him, hoping Mr. Sparks' youth will make him drop his guard so he can use the Degenerate's fire gun.
They arrive at the museum, where the Degenerate and Serena are able to foil his plans. The kids are saved from being immolated and when Mr. Sparks tries to interfere in the Degenerate vs.Solitaire, Serena manages to knock his aim off, making Mr. Sparks blast the Degenerate with his own flames. Laughing at the irony, as "what a finish! What an act! What a world!" The Degenerate burns to ashes.
Heinous Standard?
Well, you'll see from the others. It's a superhero 'verse, with all that implies. But the Degenerate is unique: an arsonist serial killer who targets people on basis of beauty, and the whole "kidnap 60 kids to burn them alike" with a lot of his serial arson seen makes him...stand out.
Mitigating Qualities?
The Degenerare believes everyone is 'slime' and only 'the meanest survive in this world.' He loves to attack beauty and innocence to reveal the cruelty of the world. No excuse is ever, ever given. As for Mr. Sparks...he's more fascinated by him and likes him being a sadistic little brat with an affinity for fire, so he decides to make him into a reflection of himself. He never shows anything resembling real affection, just treating him like a soldier and sidekick.
Conclusion?
Utterly revolting villain and an easy keep.
Yes, Degenerate is an easy keep... and yeah, me, Lighty, and Ravok have at least six more villains from this universe to get to over the course of the next few days. Let me start with the next minor Solitaire villain from the first issue, King Pleasure.
Who is King Pleasure? What has he done?
The Starter Villain of the comic, the crime lord who calls himself "King Pleasure" deals in the shadows of L.A. as a human trafficking lord who specializes in the young, the lost, and those easily missed. Now... Pleasure? Is a psychopathic sadist and a pedophile who has a favor for raping young flesh to sate his hedonistic pleasures, keeping a harem of slaves which includes a young boy for him to rape and torture at his own whim as he utterly delights in their fear and pain. A wealthy man who got his fortunes from his father and a bunch of corporate takeovers he orchestrated in the 80s, Pleasure buys off the eyes of the law while continually seeking to expand his harem with new slaves, the younger the better.
One of his batch escapes onto the streets who'd rather die than get back into his clutches, and she's rescued from an unpleasant fate by Solitaire himself. The woman relates the horrible tales to what Pleasure did to her and the other slaves. Disgusted, Solitaire slaughters Pleasure's men... irritated, Pleasure simply orders his men to dispose of the threat while responding to a suspicious new batch wheeled in outside his "Pleasure Dome."
Surprise — it's Solitaire, who fights his way through Pleasure's goons and corners him. Pleasure just laughs and says he can just buy more men to replace the ones that Solitaire killed, trying to shoot him down. Solitaire lights the place on fire... and Pleasure leaves his slaves, still chained-up, to burn, laughing that he'll just have to start his collection anew and that his insurance doesn't cover humans. Pleasure doesn't manage to get far in his escape, however, when burning debris spears him through the chest... with his last words being surprised shock that Solitaire is actually the son of Anton Lone, a client of his.
Thus we enter Solitaire... look forward to Anton in the future from this series too.
Any mitigating factors?
With Pleasure himself? Dear Lord, no. Human trafficking, pedophilic rapist, buys his way out of any consequences, all to sate his "pleasure..." the heinous standard's high, but Pleasure sets a very high bar even as the Starter Villain, and stands out even next to characters like Anton and Degenerate for his particular brand of villainy.
Conclusion?
Easy, easy keeper. Look forward to more from us and Ravok over the next while.
Thoughts?
for Orlando Doyle, the Degenerate, and King Pleasure.
A 'Yes' to Doyle, and both Degenerate and Pleasure are indeed EASY Keeps.
Now, for my first of the Ultraverse baddies....
Who is he?
Anton Lone is the Big Bad of the comic and the Archnemesis Dad to our hero, Nicholas Lone, AKA Solitaire himself.
Anton here is a corrupt businessman who seeks ultimate power and to preserve his "legacy" in a way he sees fit...and has a buttload of crimes to show for it.
What has he done?
Anton is a nasty, nasty Corrupt Corporate Executive, who has supplied weapons and funds to bloody coups in other countries that have left countless homeless, starving, or dead, deals in every crime in the book, and has even visited the aforeproposed King Pleasure's "Pleasure Dome" for his....services (Read: Sponsoring and using his sex slaves). All of thid is what eventually caused Anton's son, Nicholas, to become the vigilante known as Solitaire, who fights Anton's evil while simultaneously trying to find his own missing mother, who mysteriously disappeared from Anton's side some years ago.
Now, as our hero Solitaire begins breaking up several of Anton's crime rings and such, Anton pays off a woman Solitaire once saved to supply him with information, and later uses several agents to further begin tracking Solitaire....Anton then orders the woman and agents all by murdered by his Dragon, Jinn, to tie up loose ends.
Anton then initiates his first big scheme of the comic....planting a nuclear weapon in Hollywood, Anton plans to blow the entire city up, unleashing lethal radiation that will kill untold millions. Anton will then swoop in with his cleanup crew, buy up much of the destroyed—and thus costly reduced—property, then turn it into prime real estate to make millions once the radiation is cleared out. Yes, he wants to blow millions of people literally as a real estate scheme, he's one of THOSE villains.
Luckily, this scheme is thwarted by Solitaire, who Anton is still unaware is actually his son Nicholas....now, around this point in time, we learn that Anton wants to Nicholas to inherit his business, and has secretly implanted nanotech into him to slowly, almost unnoticeably, brainwash Nicholas into only wanting what his father does.
This putting a temporary damper on Nicholas' actions as Solitaire as he struggles to overcome the nanotech, Anton reveals two new projects....he has made a deal with the monstrous creatures known as the Fire People and their leader Atalon, and has supplied them with nuclear weapons and access to several military bases around the world. Atalon plans to use said nukes to wipe out almost all life on Earth so the Fire People may reign supreme once again.
Anton? Is fully aware of this, and is overjoyed at the prospect, as his end of the bargain entails Atalon granting Anton full control over North America once the dust settles. To assist in his new dominion, Anton uses nanotech to spawn monstrous superpowers entities he dubs his "children," who will annihilate anyone who stands in his way, even by entire cities.
Now, around this time, Jinn has discovered Nicholas is Solitaire, and, as Solitaire removes his nanotech and the brainwashing, he gets into a duel with Jinn, which Anton walks in on. As Jinn reveals Nicholas is Solitaire and proclaims that Jinn is Anton's true heir, Anton promptly and coldly guns down Jinn, then tries to do the same to Nicholas, angirly proclaiming "I did right by you, and you betray me?!"
Nicholas disarms Anton, who then breaks down into sobs and collapses into Nicholas's arms....he then reveals he's faking as he pulls a knife and stabs his son. Dragging him to the roof of his business building, Anton annoyingly states "What am I supposed to do now, knock up another slut, then wait another twenty years for a new heir?"
Anton then resolves that he doesn't NEED an heir, as he will be a god all to himself with his new superpowered "children", and proceeds to order one possessed of fire powers to burn Nicholas alive, then destroy Anton's entire business building along with everyone inside, boasting that he's ready to burn his past and embrace his new future.
Fortunately, Nicholas dodges out of the way and manages to take Anton down, at which point he asks the burning question...where is his mother. Anton's disgustingly smug response?
"The same place I'm trying to send you. I tell you, it was an accident! I just put my hands around her neck to teach her some respect and...well, it taught me to never mix up with BREAKABLE BITCHES AGAIN!"
As Nicholas is horrified, Anton uses the opportunity to order his super-children to burn Nicholas alive again...unfortunately for Anton, Nicholas dodges away at just the right time, leading to Anton being set aflame by his own creation and dying screaming for his son to help him.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Nothing on either count. Anton claims that he had a rough childhood and that it made him into the man he is today, but he treats it as a thing to be proud of more than anything, and we don't actually get to see any part of said childhood. So Anton just comes off as a prideful sociopath.
As for "loving" Nicholas? Laughable. Anton treats the boy like he's supposed to be Anton's personal achievement and slave, going so far as to implant brainwashing nanotech into him.....when he discovers Nicholas is Solitaire? Anton is visibly shaken, and even proclaims there's a "knife in my heart that's twisting," but...ultimately? This is nothing more than a "My legacy is GONE! Now I'll have to find ANOTHER wife to birth my a son!"
And when he decides he truly doesn't need a legacy? He orders Nicholas be burned alive with a smile on his face, and mocks Nicholas about his mother's death at Anton's hands.
Heinousness?
Anton is one of the worst humans in the Ultraverse bar none. He's got countless amounts of death and ruin on his hands, funding wars, human trafficking, and all sorts of awful stuff, personally tries to nuke Los Angeles to get real estate, allies with a genocidal lunatic exchange for rule over the few millions people who will be left alive, and guns down his own Dragon for....no real reason, actually, except to cover up the fact that Nicholas is such a "disappointment" to the Lone bloodline.
While perhaps not as viscerally horrifying as Degenerate or Pleasure? Anton outdoes them both in bodycount.
Final Verdict?
An easy Keep, methinks.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!

Btw, some RWBY developments. If anyone is interested as to how I'm leaning, feel free to PM me