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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#105776: Jan 9th 2018 at 12:44:57 PM

[up]I googled it and according to wikipedia its the main villain of a book called Thief of Midnight . If somone wants to check that out then they can go ahead.

Though the only versions Im familar with is the one from Grimm and Wizards of Waverly place.

[down]Yeah keep in mind theres a version of Yog Sotoh who counts as a CM. So who knows, media is a rich and unexplored world.

edited 9th Jan '18 12:55:16 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#105777: Jan 9th 2018 at 12:51:01 PM

Only real exposure I have with El Coco is through that one Cracked article it appeared in... still, I wouldn't be surprised if it got a nasty qualifying version in a book or film or something.

Keep searching, all. The world of media is rich with qualifiers for us yet.

edited 9th Jan '18 12:51:33 PM by Scraggle

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#105778: Jan 9th 2018 at 1:08:30 PM

[up] Yeah....I seconded that. Though for me its kind of hard but I'll see what I can do and speaking of media I felt that I want to add some flicks from my country like Mystics of Bali or Pengabdi Setan (Satan's Worshiper) or other obscure flicks from my country on my to do list as for now....And I saw someone from The Raid 2 as a keeper RIP [nja]

Speaking of Serial Rapist....Doesnt Suguru Kamoshida have one rape onscreen or CMIIW as I forgot about that

edited 9th Jan '18 1:09:18 PM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#105779: Jan 9th 2018 at 1:12:29 PM

[up]The thing with Kamoshida is that as dark as Shin Megami Tensei is, rape in general is pretty rare and he's the only Serial Rapist in the entire franchise which makes him stand out when he probably wouldnt otherwise.

The only other case of rape in SMT that I can think of is Adachi from Persona 4 and that was just attempted on one person and he has loved ones, so cant count.

edited 9th Jan '18 1:16:47 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#105780: Jan 9th 2018 at 1:18:03 PM

Makes sense then....It's like the NCIS situation that you said.

And because of this....I vote [tdown] to Koch

Also, I felt that the maraca raping guy almost looks like crossing the grimdark pointless schlock territory bullshit but if theres someone know how the story like.....Im not sure if the story is good enough to make him stand out

edited 9th Jan '18 1:20:31 PM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#105781: Jan 9th 2018 at 1:18:45 PM

[tdown] Koch.

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#105783: Jan 9th 2018 at 1:42:53 PM

[up] Whoops. You got me! [lol][nja]

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#105784: Jan 9th 2018 at 1:48:05 PM

I'll abstain on Kotch. Sound heinous enough, but his lack of screen time and personality don't give me the confidence to vote either way.

For Serial Rapist keepers who only comitted Rape, their is Alex Close from New Tricks (okay he did also abuse illegal immigrants but its a minor crime in comparison) who had a confirmed three victims (and the heavy implication of a lot more).

But rape is pretty rare in the series, their was only one other Serial Rapist who was a date rapist and his crimes were all off-screen (he was just a Red Herring in that episode) and the episode made a point of demonstrating how his crimes had damaged (or in one case effectively destroyed) his victims lives.

I suppose technically he did unintentionally cause one person's death but he can't really be blamed. The poor guy died cause someone else was convinced he was the rapist.

Overall I would say serial rape probably is heinous enough on its own to count, but it depends what the works heinous standard is, and how much of the effects of their crimes are shown.

edited 9th Jan '18 1:52:19 PM by MGD107

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#105785: Jan 9th 2018 at 1:51:07 PM

[up] Agreed. In something like Criminal Minds or SVU, there'd need to be something else. In something like, say, a PG-13 movie? It may be enough.

EDIT: We do have the duo from Banshee.

edited 9th Jan '18 1:55:01 PM by ACW

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#105786: Jan 9th 2018 at 1:59:33 PM

[up]Yeah I think with Serial Rapist they can count but only if Rape itself is rare in the work like in the case of Wexler, Kamoshida, Close and the Banshee duo.

Though I do think that in just a PG 13 film on its own it would be enough.

edited 9th Jan '18 2:00:04 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#105787: Jan 9th 2018 at 2:31:09 PM

Kamoshida is unique in that he may be one of the very few CM who hasn't killed someone

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#105788: Jan 9th 2018 at 2:33:03 PM

[up] CMIIW but wasnt one of the girls that got raped by Kamoshida almost committed suicide? Does that count as almost a passive murder in your opinion

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#105789: Jan 9th 2018 at 2:47:51 PM

[tdown] Koch.

Also *looks at previous page* there's a CM version of Yog-Sothoth ? How did I miss that ?

edited 9th Jan '18 2:48:03 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#105790: Jan 9th 2018 at 2:51:25 PM

[up]Hes the Great Intelligence from Doctor Who. We grandfathered him in back in 2013 which is why he's never come up before as an effort-post.

[down]Funnily enough he's not the only Doctor Who villain who was revelaed to be an Outer God in the EU. Fenric is accroding to the EU : Hastur

edited 9th Jan '18 3:33:08 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#105791: Jan 9th 2018 at 3:24:54 PM

[up]To be fair, the Great Intelligence being Yog-Sothoth is from a series of Doctor Who novels. Whether or not it’s part of the canon of the show is up for debate. That said, I like the idea of the Doctor clashing with an Outer God and winning, pissing it off so much that it’s eager to kill itself just to get rid of the Doctor.

[tdown] for Clive Koch. He has the disadvantage off being killed off early in the story, thus preventing him from adding more heinous deeds to his name.

edited 9th Jan '18 3:25:21 PM by NTG

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#105792: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:15:02 PM

The thing about Kamoshida is that while he only has one confirmed outright rape, he also beats his male students, molests his female ones, and calculatingly destroys the life of any student who stands up to him. He's also practically alone among SMT villains in that there's no indication he knows anything about the supernatural aspects of the setting, making him the bottom of the barrel resources-wise by orders of magnitude.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#105793: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:24:28 PM

So uh was at Tales Of Vesperia and found tgis in Alexei 's charcatr page. I think he apparently only counts in the English Dub because they took away the apparent small redeeming qualities. So uh what do I do with this.

Well-Intentioned Extremist: Despite his abuse of Estelle and her powers, he was trying to reform the corrupt Empire and Guilds... by enacting a military dictatorship under his personal guidance.

edited 9th Jan '18 4:25:55 PM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#105794: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:12:51 PM

[tdown] To Koch.

Anyway, another day and another Star Trek comic book villain to propose, this one from a IDW mini series, set in the Kelvin universe, the Big Bad of the Manifest Dentinity mini:

Who is Sho'Tokh? What has done?

Sho'Tokh is an albino Klingon cast out of his family for being different and forced to live on the street. Sho'Tokh survived by becoming a vicious street brawler. His viciousness eventually got him noticed by the Klingon military, who allowed him to join. He rose through ranks and was given his own military unit to command, mostly made up of other outcasts and is sent out to conquer worlds for the Empire.

Sho'Tokh and his forces invade an alien world that is still in the bronze age, massacring any who resist. With all resistance quelled, Sho'Tokh orders that all of the able bodied males and fertile female aliens shall be spared (but enslaved) and the others will die. One of his lieutenants asks if that includes the children and Sho'Tokh says yes, not wanting the next generation around to resist him and wanting to remake this world from the next generation up as slaves loyal to him. When the lieutenant protests, saying such actions are dishonorable war crimes and not the Klingon way, Sho'Tokh murders him.

Wanting a new prize, Sho'Tokh lures the Enterprise to a planet with a fake distress signal and has his forces launch a sneak attack on the Enterprise. Sho'Tokh sends several troops in space suits to attack the Enterprise's hull and are engaged by Star Fleet personal in space suits to defned it. Sho'Tokh troops are weakening the hull, but then Sho'Tokh orders his ships to fire on the hull, not caring that several of his men die in the process.

Sho'Tokh takes control of the Enterpise bridge, but Kirk and the rest of the crew are still on board ready to resist. Sho'Tokh gives them one hour to surrender, but quickly changes his mind and orders his forces on the Enterprise to slaughter the crew, not caring that he broke his word or that his reinforcements from the other ships have not yet arrived. Sho'Tokh's forces meet heavy resistance and suffer massive causalities trying to kill the Enterprise crew, but Sho'Tokh does not care, he ordered this assault just to lull the Enterprise crew into a false sense of security, before his reinforcements arrive and the real assault can begin.

At this point, one Sho'Tokh's lieutenants, Divash turns against him, realizing he is a power mad psychopath and leads many of his former troops against him. Kirk, his crew and his new allies defeat Sho'Tokh and his remaining forces. Defeated Sho'Tokh dares Kirk to kill him, but Kirk refuses, handing him over to the Klingon Empire for his crimes, where he is imprisoned.

Is he heinous by the standards of the work?

This is set Kelvin universe, not the Prime Universe. So in the Kelvin Universe you had Nero blowing up planet Vulcan and planning to do the same thing to Earth. You also had Krall trying to kill millions people on a massive Star Fleet space station. In the comics, Gul Dukat tries to destroy the universe and Section 31 tries to start a war between the Klingon and the Romulans to remove them as threats to the Federation.

However Sho'Tokh conquered a planet that posed no threat, made the males into slave labor, the females into breeding stock and slaughtered all the children on that world, that is a massive war crime and even the Klingons who have a reputation for brutality, consider that immoral. Couple that with the ease at which he throws away the lives of his own troops and I think he passes.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

I don't think his back story of being an outcast that his family abandoned and growing up on the streets comes close to justifying his actions. Several of his troops are outcasts and he has no regards for them.

Besides that, no redeeming qualities, his supposed sense of honor is non existence, he is no regards for his troops, plans to eventually take over the Klingon Empire, proving he has loyalty to no one but himself. His actions are brutal even for a Klingon warrior, so much his troops question his orders and many eventually turn against him.

Final Verdict?

Pass.

edited 9th Jan '18 5:15:56 PM by Overlord

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#105795: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:15:33 PM

I'll vote on that later, but an update on Anime!Faba: Unless something happens, he doesn't count. Heinousness issues aside, he seems to regret his actions and pulled a Heel–Face Turn, unless it's all an act.

Animeking1108 Since: Jan, 2010
#105796: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:42:53 PM

Okay. Here's my write-up for Samejima.

  • Inuyashiki: Samejima is the Arc Villain of the Yakuza Arc. He is a Yakuza boss that regularly abducts, drugs, rapes, and kills women For the Evulz. He is first introduced leering over the corpse of a woman he violated before forcing one of his underlings to give him a blow job. His next target, a woman named Fumino, manages to escape him before he could do anything to her. Determined to get Fumino, he tracks down her mother and it is heavily implied that he tortured her to get Fumino's whereabouts and killed her. He orders his men to grab Fumino while he strangles her fiance, Satoru to death (but is thankfully revived by Inuyashiki) and seemingly kills Inuyashiki when he tries to stop him. Before Inuyashiki confronts him, it's heavily implied that he got what he wanted from Fumino. Samejima orders his men to shoot Inuyashiki in retaliation for beating him up. Despite being an All-Loving Hero and a Technical Pacifist, Inuyashiki decides that Samejima is beyond redemption and subjects him to a Fate Worse than Death by blinding and crippling him.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#105797: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:44:28 PM

The notion that any version of Faba could ever count is laughable at best and outright baffling at worst. Honestly, if there's any potential CM in the SM season, it'll come if they adapt the post-game of USUM.

JoeBlitz Since: Dec, 2016
#105798: Jan 9th 2018 at 6:41:15 PM

[tup] The Star Trek baddie.

I was looking at my first write-up, and I was thinking it could use some trimming.

Original

Lethal Weapon (2016): Gideon Lyon is a cold-blooded CIA agent turned right-hand madman of cartel leader Tito Flores. Described as the most brutal of Flores's enforcers, Gideon is notable for his penchant for Cold-Blooded Torture, a trait he demonstrates on a DEA informant that falls into his clutches while pursuing Flores's runaway mistress and infant child into Los Angeles, brutalizing the man and hanging his body for the world to see. His Establishing Character Moment has him getting into a jovial conversation with Martin Riggs before firing a rocket into a hotel room in an attempt to kill Riggs, his partner Murtaugh, DEA agent Palmer, the aforementioned mistress and her baby, and then killing two responding officers. Later arrested after a second attempt on the mistress's life, Gideon is revealed to have played a key role in the death of Riggs's wife Miranda, causing the distraught cop to free Gideon from prison to interrogate him personally. Gideon goes on to tell Riggs that he deliberately waited for the pregnant Miranda to go into labor and head to the hospital before ordering the car crash that killed her, for no reason other than to make Riggs suffer. Escaping, Gideon later abducts Riggs and Murtaugh to torture, attempting to stop Murtaugh's pacemaker with a defibrillator before bragging to Riggs that after the crash, Miranda was still breathing, so he personally suffocated her to death. A sociopathic Sadist who simply enjoys hurting others, physically and psychologically, Gideon Lyon stands out as an unrepentant killer who darkens the tone of this action-comedy series significantly.

New

Lethal Weapon (2016): Gideon Lyon is a cold-blooded CIA agent turned attack dog for cartel leader Tito Flores. Described as Flores's most brutal enforcer, Lyon pursues Flores's mistress Maria and her infant son into Los Angeles, killing an informant. Cornering Martin Riggs, his partner Murtaugh, DEA Agent Palmer, Maria, and her baby in a motel, Lyon attempts to kill them all with a rocket before murdering two responding officers. Upon his arrest, Lyon is revealed to be linked to the death of Riggs's wife Miranda, and when interrogated by Riggs, Lyon boasts that once Flores commissioned the hit, he deliberately waited for Miranda to go into labor before ordering the car crash that killed her, just to hurt Riggs. Escaping, Lyon kidnaps Riggs and Murtaugh, torturing Murtaugh with a defibrillator and bragging that after the crash, he suffocated the still-alive Miranda to death. A psychopath who simply enjoys hurting others, Gideon Lyon significantly darkens the tone of this action-comedy series.

Any thoughts?

"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#105799: Jan 9th 2018 at 6:42:07 PM

Tighter but better. I'd approve.

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#105800: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:05:17 PM

[tup] Joker and Sho'Tokh. [tdown] Koch.

[up][up] Looks good.


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