During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Aerys, Frank underwood ( reminds me of guys like Harold Saxon / John Simm master hey lost all redeeming qualities in the end and well they can feel care for others, they ultimately choose not to) and Damon ( Was initially worried considering the previous Big Bad was uh unique but uh he's a different kind of villain, so I think he stands out.)
edited 3rd Jan '18 10:32:56 PM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Yea to Frank.
To be exact, House of Cards was originally a British series with three seasons, starring Ian Richardson as the Conservative whip Francis Urquhart who seeks to rise to be PM of England and reign for longer than Thatcher...there's a lot of Shakespearean influence there. Urquhart, however, isn't a CM, with redeeming qualities, despite how wicked he becomes.
Yup, and to be even more specific, the British miniseries was based off a British book series, which explicitly references Shakespeare and his characters often. Frank actually does say some Shakespeare quotes himself throughout the show, and I have no doubt that guys like Richard III and Iago inspired Francis' character in all of the works.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!It's interesting how a series that has so far revolved around a single central protagonist for five seasons will now feature a different one in its sixth and final seasons, for real-life reasons. Is there a trope to describe this? It's not quite Decoy Protagonist...something like Arc Protagonist?
Yea on Damon.
Speaking of Jefferson.........I wonder why this quote could be considered as a monstrous quote. Just wondering for the context though:
"Simply put, I'm obsessed with the idea of capturing that moment when innocence evolves into corruption. That shift from black, to white, to gray... and beyond. Most models are cynical; they lose that naivete. However, some Blackwell students carry their hope and optimism with them like... an aura. And those lucky few become my models... my subjects."
edited 3rd Jan '18 11:51:28 PM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."@Scraggle Ah! Makes sense then.....So is it at best to keep the quote or not?
@ACW yea....I was asking that but iirc Kevin Spacey was also the one who played John Doe from Se7en
Oh! And btw....While I'm going to overwork with some anime and video game proposal....I think this is only one anime left on my radar for discussion but....Can I add Violet Evergarden to my to do list?
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Having just seen the short, I will give a slight
to Piella.
I have two more candidates, from the Judge Dredd first person shooter game, Judge Dredd: Dredd vs. Death .
First off, Dr. Icarus:
Who is Dr. Icarus and what does he do?
Icarus is a scientist who is selling a product called the Pet Regen, designed to bring dead pets back to life. In truth, he is trying to create a formula that will give people Complete Immortality. He is seeing if he can bring things back to life, as he believes it will help him achieve the formula.
Eventually, he stops focusing on bringing pets back to life, and tries for human subjects. He succeeds, but the people come back undead as zombies and vampires, which he unleashes upon Mega City One, resulting in many innocent people being killed due to his undead plague. He shows no concern for the many deaths he is causing and continues.
Eventually, Judge Dredd learns he is behind the undead army attacking the city, and goes to arrest him. When Dredd arrives at his company and goes to his underground labs to try and arrest him, Icarus unleashes all of the still captive undead from their cells so they can kill Dredd, not caring that his many workers could be killed as well. He lies that they escaped and tells his workers to not worry, giving them False Reassurance by telling them that they just have to show the undead who's boss and they will listen to them.
After fighting his way through the undead, and all of the workers have been arrested or killed, Dredd reaches Icarus. Icarus gloats that he has finally created the formula, and promptly injects himself with it, claiming that nothing can stop him now, but Dredd shoots and kills him before the formula can fully take affect, saying "Consider yourself stopped."
Heinousness?
Icarus unleashes an undead plague upon the city, resulting in the deaths of many innocent people. He later unleashes his remaining monsters on Dredd while endangering the lives of all of his workers, who he obviously doesn't care about.
He is the secondary antagonist of the game, with the Dark Judges being the main villains. However, his undead army serve as the main enemies of the game, making them The Heavy. He isn't as bad as the next candidate, but considering the vast resource difference...
Redeeming features?
One could argue that making a serum that could make people completely immortal is a good goal, but he was probably mainly desiring immortality for himself.
Next candidate, Judge Death.
Who is Judge Death and what does he do?
We already know who he is, so let's just focus on what he does in the game.
After he and the other Dark Judges are released by a cult, they resume their goal to end all life, splitting up to commit mass murder across Mega City One. After Judges Mortis and Fire are dealt with and re imprisoned, Death fights Dredd. Dredd defeats Death but he manages to get away with the corpse of Dr. Icarus, which has now mutated into a monstrous abomination.
After defeating and imprisoning Judge Fear, Judge Dredd goes to Death's home dimension. Death reveals that he has captured the Psi-Judges and is now draining them of their energy to try and use it to merge Deadworld with Dredd's universe, killing every living thing in Mega City One (400 million people).
To try and stop Dredd from freeing the Psi-Judges, Death takes possession of Icarus's corpse. It turns out that the reason it mutated into something that looked more like a monster than a human is because the immortality formula continued to take affect on Icarus's body after his death, transforming it into its current appearance and making it completely indestructible. With Icarus's immortal body, Death becomes invulnerable. Unable to hurt him, Dredd avoids his attacks and frees the Psi-Judges, thwarting Death's plan. The Psi-Judges are able to use their energy to force Death out of Icarus's body, allowing Judge Anderson to forcefully contain Death in her body, leaving him imprisoned yet again.
Heinousness?
Death goes out to try and end all life like he always does. He eventually captures the Psi-Judges and tries to drain them of all of their energy to use it to merge Deadworld with Dredd's universe and kill all life in Mega City One.
He is an Omnicidal Maniac as always. He is even worse than Icarus in that regard.
Redeeming features?
jjjI don't know... Icarus kind of strikes me as under the baseline, especially for a villain in Mega City One. Yea to Judge Death as per always, though.
Alright, another post for tonight... one that, again, I have been meaning to get up for friggin' ages.
What's the setting?
Zoids: Genesis is one of the later installments of the well-known giant mecha series Zoids. An alternate continuity to the main series, Genesis focuses on a version of Planet Zi thousands of years after a catastrophe that crippled the world and its technology... with the main setting being that of a world mostly ruled by the Digald Empire, which has an alliance with the all-powerful People of the Sky. A young boy named Ruuji is suddenly caught in the fight against the corrupt Digald Empire when his home village is destroyed, in the process finding out that he can control a giant, advanced Zoid called Murasame Liger. Initially in a bid to find a generator for his village to assure its continued survival, Ruuji is wrapped up into the ranks of the Suppression Army and gains a trove of new friends in the fight against the Digald Empire... with one exceptionally corrupt member among its ranks: General Jiin.
Who is Jiin? What has he done?
A child of the Sky People who was given to the Emperor of Digald to eventually assure the Sky People's total dominion over it, Jiin's growing ambitions prove too much even for them as he grows up... with a desire to become God even from a relatively young age, Jiin befriends a young prodigy named Zairin who exceeds even Jiin's abilities, prompting Jiin to promote him to Major after seeing his abilities in battle and confiding to him his desire to eventually become God itself. Thus ensues a "friendship" between the two that lasts for years as Jiin becomes Supreme Commander of Digald's military and becomes instrumental in its own victories, with much in the way of rebellion squashed and slaughtered by Jiin and havoc and oppression wreaked by his soldiers on his order. Jiin remains mostly in the background in the series as his ailing father stands as ostensible Big Bad, giving orders to Zairin to wipe out the growing Suppression Army. When Jiin's Zoid, the BioRaptor, is destroyed, Jiin tells him it's no biggie and unveils a whole army of mass-produced BioRaptors, giving him a new Zoid called the Volcano.
It's not until the last ten or so episodes that Jiin really hits his stride... having mostly just ordered some destruction and manipulated the Sky People, who grow wary of Jiin's escalating measures to take out the resistance and fearing he may target them soon, too, Jiin's ambitions come to a head when he fatally poisons his father and watches him die with a smile on his face, before immediately assuming the role of grieving son who takes over as Emperor of Digald. From there, Jiin orders an attack on Sora City itself, initially under the weak guise of "treason" given that they're harboring enemies of Digald but later confessing that it's just an "eyesore" in his new world, felling the entire city and destroying it with its thousands of citizens thankfully evacuated in time. With his birth home destroyed and the Sky People no longer watching over his tail? Jiin declares himself the one, supreme God and makes his will clear to the world; anyone who will not bow down to him will be utterly annihilated, preparing his forces to lead a wave of havoc across the planet with his BioTyranno Zoid at the head to destroy anyone who even thinks of resisting and enslaving the rest, while executing any in Digald who question his regime.
The most horrifying reveal about Jiin, late in the series? Zairin finds out that Jiin has been using the souls of thousands of his own innocent citizens — men, women, and children, without regard — to power up his Zoid armada, keeping them conscious, agonized, and unable to do anything about it as he uses them all as disposable fodder to slaughter and destroy his enemies as they're forced to watch the entire thing. This whopper of a Moral Event Horizon rattles Zairin and, eventually, most of the rest of the Digald army enough to turn on Jiin. Jiin, having essentially lost it at this point in the series, vows to eliminate anyone in his way — revealing that the Volcano Zoid he gave to Zairin was for the sole purpose of draining his life energy to power his own Zoid before trying to kill him — having even loyal Digald soldiers killed in his repeated attempts to destroy the Suppression Army and eventually leading a march to their base.
To prove he's serious? Jiin just starts annihilating every city in his way on the way to the base, vaporizing one after another with no regard to the thousands of innocents in his way. With the leader of the Suppression Army seemingly killed by him, Ruuji takes up arms to fight Jiin himself and a final battle occurs, with Jiin sadistically beating his enemies down and announcing he'll break the world's hope by slowly killing Ruuji... only for Ruuji and his friends to gain enough power to finally turn the tables against Jiin, cutting through the BioTyranno and destroying it with him still in it.
Any mitigating factors?
Zilch. Jiin at least seems to regard Zairin as a friend for a long time, but it's revealed towards the end of the series Jiin's always regarded him and everyone else as just a tool to be used in his campaign of destruction. He doesn't care an inkling for anyone; not his father, not his associates, not his soldiers or citizens, nobody.
For the heinous standard? I think Jiin can get a little leeway here given that Genesis is in an entirely separate continuity to the other series. Even if it wasn't, though? I'd still be tempted to give Jiin a pass, even with Omnicidal Maniac duo Gunther and Hiltz in the mix — he murders his own father, destroys his own city of birth, annihilates entire populated cities, tries to take over the world with a scheme that entails loads of death and destruction to whoever puts up the slightest inkling of resistance, and empowers his Zoids with the trapped, conscious souls of countless innocent people from his own empire — the latter of which I think stands as one of the nastiest crimes in the franchise, period.
So, all in all? Pass for "the single, absolute God Jiin!"
Conclusion?
Easy, easy keep.
Thoughts?
edited 4th Jan '18 3:50:15 AM by Scraggle
"One could argue that making a serum that could make people completely immortal is a good goal, but he was probably mainly desiring immortality for himself."
Is there confirmation either way?
Death though.
"Jiin's ambitions prove too move even for them as he grows"
Come again?
Jiin.
edited 4th Jan '18 3:02:49 AM by ACW
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Well, he's clearly a sociopath who is willing to unleash an undead plague on the city and doesn't mind his workers being killed if it means Dredd dies as well. I have a hard time believing he has any good intentions considering that. When he injects himself, he says "Nothing can stop me now!"
How exactly could you make yourself completely immortal anyway? I mean, I know that real life scientists hope to one day find a way for humanity to achive biological immortality, but Complete Immortality? I don't see an invulnerability serum ever being invented. Even Water Bears have limits to their durability, I believe.
edited 4th Jan '18 3:10:38 AM by bobg
jjjIt has been a while since I played the game but Dr. Icarus didn’t do that much at all. He only appears in one mission in which he’s killed. I don’t think the game even bothered to explain why exactly he unleashed his undead into the city. I mean his goal was to become immortal, not destroying the city. For all we know they could’ve been escaped experiments.
Even if we assume he did it on purpose, his crimes pale in comparison to Death: In the first mission his vampires attack a bunch of citizens. In the second mission they assault a prison which results in the escape of the Dark Judge – although it’s later revealed that at least one of them can control the vampires, so maybe they’re responsible for this one. And in the fourth mission his zombie overran a shopping mall. So I’ve to give Dr. Icarus a
.
In the comic there was this guy called Sabbat the Necromagus who turned himself into an undead and was pretty much indestructible. Judge Death also seems to be unkillable. So magic is the way to go.
Just use the Dragon Balls - or Super Dragon Balls I guess - wish for Complete Immortality and hope you don't piss off Zen-Oh.
Death Judgeman.
edited 4th Jan '18 4:59:11 AM by PolarPhantom
Uh the Complete Immortality didn't really work out so well for zamasu though
Judge Death and Jiin
Yes to Frank Underwood. I was looking forward to that one.
ACW asked me to explain more about my candidate
from
The Exorcist.
So I have 11
note for the Island Demon and no opposition unless I missed something.
Now a concrete comparaison between the two Big Bads with their respective rapsheet
Not counting the film series, Pazuzu took posession of two people, killed at least 8 people onscreen note and attempted/planned to kill 7 more.
The Island demon -or "Grace" if you prefer- took posession of four people, kills 10 people onscreen including 6 children and attempted/planned to kill 8 more including one partially in self defense. I'm not counting the pattern of targeting families.
Pazuzu still strikes me as the creepiest and most heinious because he literally molested Regan when she was a little girl (which made me very uncomfortable), forced a girl to smash the knees of her sister with the threat of tearing the arms of their father if she refused and attempted a Psychic-Assisted Suicide on a priest presumably because that way would condemn his soul to hell.
As for the general heiniousness, demons so far are all murderous jerks who hate humans. At the start of the series we see one killing a boy with a Neck Snap. Another murders a man and take a baby in hostage. At the end of the second season, a posessed priest is about to decapitate a nurse in a homage to a scene from the third film
.
However Pazuzu and Grace are so so far the most prolific serial killers and, unlike the other demons, try to be more subtle and manipulative especially they try to impersonate their hosts.
I wouldn't mind if either or both get down but at least I would have told everything.
Yeah. A lot of the characters listed with Complete Immortality don't meet my definition. I only consider a character truly immortal if NOTHING can kill them. Not being deatomized or anything. I actually consider such true immortality so rare that I recently started making a list of characters with what I consider true immortality. So far, I have like 65 listed. The Dark Judges are amongst them. I have to add that Emperor from that book written by Scraggle.
Anyway, back on topic, would this be only the third version of Judge Death to get his own entry?
jjj

A long read, but
Frank Underwood. Will look at Damon later.
edited 3rd Jan '18 10:22:20 PM by AustinDR