During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Tim Scam? A candidate (it has been over a decade since I saw this show, so I'm running solely on memory, but I did quite like it when it was on). Possible, I wouldn't say any feelings for Sam are migrating, inverse its presented more as lust (or at least as much lust as they were allowed to get away with), and he does try to kill her on several occasions.
The issue is more how he's presented. On the one hand, Tim is easily the second most evil villain in the show (second only to Helga), every villain in the series has a motivation or a Freudian Excuse (often a hopeless out of proportion one,) and a clear goal (an outright stupid and insane one) which generally holds together well enough.
Tim, doesn't. The guy's a pretty clear cut psychopath: superficial charming, possessing an over inflated sense of self worth, no concept of empathy and takes way to much pleasure out of other people's suffering.
The problem is, even as the shows second most evil villain. I'm not a hundred percent sure if its enough to cut it. His efforts almost always directly target the spies. In his first appearance, he tries to kill them numerous times (with methods ranging between trying to cut them apart to rigging a car to blow up with them in it), then tries to evaporate all the water on the earth, including inside people, for no apparent reason other than he can.
But after that, just about every appearance was an overly complicated revenge plot, ranging from sending shapeshifting liquid robots to kill them, to luring them to a fake spa, brainwashing their mothers and trying to force them to kill them. Whilst on paper, that does sound bad, he did fall into Laughably Evil a lot more often after his first appearance (such as his robot Alex randomly starting cleaning up their home, and him clearly having no idea why it was doing that).
His deeds and personality are probably heinous enough, but I'm not sure if the presentation is there. I would have to rewatch a few episodes to know for sure.
Either way, its hard for anyone to live up to Helga. I mean she skinned people alive and used their skins to make clothes, in a kids show.
Oh and
to Lord Dregg.
edited 30th Dec '17 3:10:34 PM by MGD107
Yeah, Helga's later appearances never came close to her earlier ones (thus her write up focus's mostly on her first appearance). By the end, her stand out effort was erasing the girls memories. Still nothing that occurred was migrating so she can still count.
The trouble was, she was both a recurring villain and a popular antagonist, so they couldn't leave her out of the team up. However, as with most villain team ups, this leads to inevitable Villain Decay, or else they would kill the heroes pretty quickly.
I agree, she did seem loyal and even attracted to Jerry's brother (Terry I think? Its been a while). But by the end, they were all equally willing to stab each other in the back.
edited 30th Dec '17 3:34:10 PM by MGD107
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87! Shredder is too funny to be a CM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlUlEpnBxNg&t=115s
Got any opinions Dregg?
edited 30th Dec '17 3:51:07 PM by Overlord
Funny enough, I was briefly thinking about old-school TMNT earlier today. And then you go and propose Lord Dregg. How 'bout that.
Anyway,
Lord Dregg. This has been a weird year for the Turtles. We got a CM from the campy, goofy 80s continuity, and a CM from the 2012 continuity who was voiced by Roseanne Burr, but didn't count in the 80s continuity for being too goofy. And then we got a CM voiced by friggin' Luke Skywalker.
TMNT is one of those franchises that goes from silly to serious on a dime. The super violent black and white comic book (that parodied X-Men and Daredevil) begot the silly cartoon show that tried to darker and more serious in its last seasons and the cartoon begot the movies that started out taking notes from the comics, but became silly like the cartoon after a while.
I am thinking of proposing characters from the ridiculously violent and 90s cliched Image TMNT comics, but that comic's continuity is a mess.
edited 30th Dec '17 4:28:11 PM by Overlord
A highly anticipated 'Yes' to Dregg.
Alrighty, another candidate from myself tonight....
What's the work?
Exmortis is a 2015 comic book miniseries. Taking place in World War II, our story follows a group of....interesting soldiers nicknamed the "Dreadnaughts."
We've got our hero Jack (A werewolf), Junior (Frankenstein's monster), Nereus (A fishman), Leroux (A phantom-like pyromaniac), Cushing (A....human girl), and their leader Captain Demeter (Dracula himself).
The Dreadnaughts are brought together to lead an assault on the Nazi base Heidelberg so as to stop the latest machinations of Adolf Hitler's greatest scientist....the Angel of Death himself.
Who is he?
Josef Mengele is The Heavy of the comic, heading up the titular Project Exmortis, which entails creating a new breed of soldier for the Nazi army. Unfortunately for all and sunder, said "soldiers" aren't your typical supersoldiers....
What has he done?
Mengele is introduced chasing down a fleeing man (Heavily implied to be Igor of Frankenstein popularity) to steal the book he is carrying, which is specifically the diary of Dr. Victor Frankenstein. Having the man gunned down, Mengele begins utilizing the diary to its greatest extent.
Using everything from imprisoned Jews or war prisoners to his own soldiers, Mengele performs a plethora of vile experiments on countless people over a time span of two years, often having to do with removal of their body parts and organs and trying to reanimate their butchered corpses.
By the present...Mengele has succeeded. Creating a small group of monstrous zombie Nazis, Mengele "conditions" the mindless beasts to serve him by regularly having them rip apart dozens of prisoners Mengele arms with weapons just to further train his new experiments.
Mengele also has a....erm, don't really know WHAT to call her....meat puppet, I guess, named "Greta," who he uses as both a bodyguard and a mindless lover. As we later learn? Greta was turned into this mindless puppet by Mengele at an earlier time, and is heavily implied to have had parts of her replaced with that of other women to make her more desirable to Mengele.
Oh, and Nereus, the fishman Dreadnaught? Was turned into what he is now be Mengele putting him through awful experiments, which turned him from a human to the mutated, scaly "freak" he is today.
By the time the Dreadnaughts arrive, Mengele has used his small group of zombie Nazis to turn hundreds of other soldiers into the same, and quickly captured the Dreadnaughts. Gleefully mocking Nereus over what Mengele did to him, Mengele plans to dissect and take apart each of the Dreadnaughts to create entirely new Nazi supersoldiers to assist in the Nazi domination of the world.
As for Cushing, the sole female on the team? Mengele has her prepped and prepared to go through the same procedure Greta was apparently put through, planning to turn Cushing into a mindless slave like Greta then use them both to have...."fun" when he returns. Loooovely.
Informed that a battalion of Allied soldiers are approaching Heidelberg, Mengele decides it's as good a time as any for a field test of his new Nazi soldiers, and sics them on the Allied soldiers. It is, unsurprisingly, a bloodbath in favor of the Nazis.
Amassing his army of Nazi zombies, Mengele begins marching for Paris, planning to butcher everyone in his way and increase his zombie army evermore until finally the Third Reich assumes dominion over the entire planet.
Luckily, the Dreadnaughts escape their confinement, freeing dozens of other prisoners of Mengele's in the process, and ambush Mengel's army, successfully blowing the entire battalion to kingdom come as Mengele attempts to use Greta as a meat shield to enable to his escape.
Mengele finally meets his end when, after being set on fire by explosives and falling into a river, he tries to flee....only to be confronted by Nereus, wielding two giant blades and honestly wishing to express exactly how unhappy he is with what Mengele did to him and others....
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Ah, no. Nothing here. Mengele works for Hitler, but shows no obvious loyalty to the man beyond enjoying the fact that he gives him resources to work with.
And while he refers to Greta as his "love" and doesn't outright abuse her or anything...there's nothing redeeming there. Mengele has turned the woman into a mute, mindless slave for him to use as a weapon or a sex toy whenever he wishes, and he shows not a mite of concern when he uses her to protect himself and she dies in the process.
Heinousness?
Worst in-story. While most of the Dreadnaughts have some heavy baggage on them, most notably Jack having slaughtered seven of his fellow soldiers in a mindless rage brought on by his werewolf condition and Demeter being flipping Dracula, they are all working to somehow repent of their evil acts and are not presented as purely evil in any sense of the term.
Mengele, on the other hand? Is played as the sick, depraved monster he is, performing countless horrific experiments revolving around death and reanimation on innocents and his own men, then planning to use the resulting the zombie army to slaughter millions of innocents to enable the victory of the Nazi regime.
And then there's his sex slave thing and all the minor tortures and murders he gets up to. Those are bad as well, of course. XD
Final Verdict?
Keeeeep.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!ACW, an easy way to circumvent having a big tree for What If? Just making a new section specifically for it like we did with Milestone.
By the way, with Mr. Cancer... I'd relocate the Would Hurt a Child pothole to "all the orphans he's gathered" considering the experiments to transplant the Malignants inside human children isn't hurting them per se (considering the relationship between the kids and the Malignants is a mutually-beneficial one which mitigates the incurable illnesses the kids have?...). Cancer massacring a bunch of orphans out of spite gets the point across better.
Anyways, yea to Mengele. How many incarnations does this make, and how many in comparison to old Adolf himself? I know from the latter we've got warlock Hitler, galactic conqueror Hitler, zombie Hitler, the Hitler twins...
...god, this topic's weird.
edited 30th Dec '17 6:43:54 PM by Scraggle

If Lord Dregg goes up....He will be another CM that was played by the late Tony Jay
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."