During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Thomas LeBlanc
Now to elaborate further on the USUM villains:
- Lusamine: I'm actually in the camp who doesn't mind the changes made to her at all, as I feel they were made specifically to clarify once and for all that the "vicious monster she was in S&M" was only who she was when high as a kite on Nihilego neurotoxin, not who she is when in her right mind or who she's always been at her core. USUM Lusamine is still an incredibly self-absorbed, prideful, callous, manipulative, majorly effed up person who does terrible things under self-justifications and is a Control Freak of the highest order especially in regards to her children, but she's not psychotic, homicidal, or needlessly cruel and abusive like S&M Lusamine was and she is capable of empathy, reason, and changing her ways. She also has a very solid Freudian Excuse for why she turned out the way she did and how she did truly love her husband and was consumed by grief when she lost him, so that coupled with her mitigating qualities and (in my opinion) being less heinous than Ghetsis or Lysandre despite having some great personal cruelties to her name means she's far from qualifying for the trope overall.
- Giovanni: While conquering the multiverse with Ultra Beasts is pretty bad for him, and it's made clear that he's a unrepentant evildoer to the core, he can't ever qualify for Complete Monster because he seems to have so many tropes incompatible with it as built-in parts of his character - Villainous Valor, Worthy Opponent, Graceful Loser, Good Boss, Pet the Dog, even Affably Evil towards trainers he respects for how they've raised their Pokemon and how skilled they are in battle. They all negate any possible Complete Monster status.
- Cyrus: I feel mainline Cyrus could only come close to Complete Monsterdom if looking at the original D&P versions, where his A God Am I ambitions came off as more of a Light Yagami-esque power-grabbing ego trip that he rationalizes away with claiming it's to create a better new world free of strife and for "justice" and all that. But even then, his Affably Evil Worthy Opponent attitude towards the player and his Pet the Dog moment (allowing you to free the Lake Pokemon and also giving you a Master Ball) seemed too genuine. In Platinum he actually specifies what sort of new world he wants to create and why it would be a better world free of strife, and his position isn't exactly unfounded - it could be argued that human spirit being lacking (or "incomplete" as he's so fond of putting it) is the source of all strife and conflict in the world, so he's opting for the most extreme solution to that problem: taking out the root of it in order to save everyone from themselves and create a purer, more peaceful reality. So in addition to being a more genuine Well-Intentioned Extremist as of Platinum, his mitigating qualities are sincere, his ending in that game and his part in USUM paint him as a sad Tragic Villain, and he even has a Freudian Excuse that, while glanced over in the game itself, is actually very valid for explaining everything about the man he is today - why he hates strife and conflict, why he became antisocial, why he views the world through the lens of being like a malfunctioning system and why he believes human potential can be better fulfilled if they were without spirit and emotions (like machines), and even the Freudian implications of him wanting to achieve a deity status - even if it doesn't come close to justifying the things he did and what he attempted to pull on the entire universe. And now we have this game where not only does he again show respect and civility towards the trainer who defeats him and keeps his word to not do to that game's world what he did to his own, but it's heavily implied by his reaction to seeing the Rotom Poke'dex that he was the child who discovered Rotom and wrote that diary entry about befriending it in Platinum, giving him another indisputable Pet the Dog and making his turning away from his own spirit much sadder. To top it off, his last words in this game suggest hidden regret for what he's done and what he became. "Had I met a trainer like you earlier, would things have turned out differently for me?" So yeah, Cyrus is now firmly in the "nowhere close to qualifying" category, except for his anime incarnation by virtue of (stupid) Adaptational Villainy.
- Ghetsis: While I maintain that he still doesn't qualify here, his ambitions reaching the level of desiring to "reign supreme above all existence" and his threat to murder a child in cold blood with his bare hand (since his Pokemon had all been KO'd at that point) puts him well over the baseline, his inability to accept defeat and then resorting to violent, ruthless means in order to get his way (he even physically strikes Lillie down onto the floor, though it's not shown to us on-screen but it's explicitly clear that it's happened) makes him stand out relative to the other Big Bads sharing this narrative who all acted the opposite way after losing, and it could be argued that given the importance the franchise places on trainer-Pokemon relationships as THE central theme, planning on separating all trainers and all Pokemon in all realities of the entire multiverse from each other is sufficiently truly heinous by the standards of this series, especially when it's motivated by petty greed, pride, self interest and a lust for power and control over the lives of all others in existence, with absolutely no Freudian Excuse or redeeming qualities to mitigate this villainy. So personally, I think that Gameverse Ghetsis should count as a Complete Monster overall, but taking each game he appears in in a vacuum, he never does quite enough unique crimes that other villains in the games haven't done that would be needed for him to reach the point of putting him above and beyond the series' regular villainy and solidifying a CM status. Again, I really hope his manga incarnation ends up counting because damn it, he deserves it.
- Lysandre: While Ghetsis reigns supreme with personal heinousness, I feel Lysandre is still the most objectively heinous character in terms of his actions and goals - he's an Omnicidal Maniac who attempts to kill almost everyone in the world and unlike Cyrus has no intention of bringing them back to life afterwards, and also unlike Cyrus, he doesn't shy away from getting personally hostile and homicidal towards others, as shown by his last actions in X&Y. The only reasons he can't qualify is due to his belief that he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist whose preserving the world's beauty and ensuring a future without strife and conflict, his respect for the player that has him allowing them to shut off his weapon at all, and his Tragic Villain nature due to a Freudian Excuse that induced a severe mental derangement in him. In all media he's appeared in, he's been the same self-righteous genocidal piece of shit but with the same mitigating qualities to his name. So he can never qualify regardless of how despicable his means and ends might be.
edited 1st Dec '17 10:02:07 AM by ANewMan
I'm unsure on Malcolm. That potential Pet the Dog gives me pause. A CAUTIOUS
to LeBlanc, since he seems to do JUST enough to differentiate himself.
new JoJo's quote.
I'm requesting the Criminal Minds de-potholed entries at Complete Monster Drafts to be swapped tomorrow.
edited 1st Dec '17 7:38:39 AM by ACW
By the way, I'm going to slot myself to discuss this recently announced Batman: Ninja anime thing... Joker's got a moustache this time, it looks like. Among many other weird new things.
Plus I am not turning down the potential chance to discuss Ninja Joker. I've already done Pirate Joker, so this seems like a natural progression.
edited 1st Dec '17 7:45:03 AM by Scraggle
So earlier this week, I submitted an entry for Cutie Honey a Go Go!. That got me thinking: with how long the Cutey Honey franchise has been going (44 years and counting), there have been more C Ms than just Jewel Princess and Tarantula. Well, having read/seen some of Honey's material recently, I think there might be more to count. Thus, I am on a month long quest to submit entries of villains from this franchise. And I've got plenty of candidates to show, but one step at a time.
Without further ado, I give you...
What Is the Work?
Cutey Honey anime series, composing of both the original 1973 anime and New, since the two share continuity. So yeah, scientist creates android named Honey, gets killed, she’s released, and now Honey must stop crime using her various disguises and breas… I mean, badass sword skills. She must stop the Panther Claw organization led by both Sister Jill and…
Who Is she?
Panther Zora, the cruel and sadistic ultimate villain of the anime series (as well as the manga series). She’s a witch with God-like powers, the creator of the Panther Claw organization, and Sister Jill’s older sister.
What has she done?
An ancient, powerful witch, Zora in the original 1973 anime is bent on total world domination. She creates the Panther Claw gang to get Honey’s Element Fixing Device (aka her heart), thinking that it will help her on her quest for world domination. She turns people into her Panther kaijin (elite members) to try and either steal the device, or kidnap Honey for herself. She doesn’t care how many people her Panthers kill, or if her Panthers are killed by Honey, seeing them as indispensable; she only cares if Honey’s dead. She doesn’t even care when Sister Jill, her younger sister, is killed. After Jill’s death, she disappears, having not been completely defeated.
100 years later in New Cutie Honey.
Having supposedly been dead after a fight with Honey sometime prior to the show, Zora didn’t actually die; Honey just weakened her. She later comes back as a naked teenage girl working for Dolmeck. Taking on the name Black Maiden and trapped inside a small mech, Zora promises the evil soul-sucking Dolmeck power when she’s returned to her full form. She orders Dolmeck to do whatever she says, making her in charge of everything in the first half of the OVA. She was responsible for Cosplay City becoming a crime-ridden Crapsack town by installing Dolmeck as the head of a gang that rules the city with an iron fist. She helps Dolmeck give out capsules containing a serum that causes the user to turn into a monster; she gives one to Jewel Princess, taking advantage of JP’s lust/hatred for Cutey Honey. She later questions why Dolmeck gives the capsules to the criminals instead of letting her kill Honey herself.
Dolmeck gives these capsules to criminals so that Honey can kill them after they’ve used them. His plan is to use his powers to steal the criminals’ evil souls and give them to Zora in order to bring her back to her full potential, wanting Honey to kill him in order to release the souls for Zora to absorb.
When Dolmeck kidnaps Chokkei to lure Honey to him, Honey gets into a fight with Black Maiden, realizing later on that she was Zora. When Dolmeck releases the souls provided by the criminals that Honey fought and killed, Zora turns into an adult. She would have gotten full power had Honey not killed Dolmeck and sealed his soul-giving body.
Having supposedly been defeated by Honey and killed in a ship crash, Zora returns throughout the final four episodes, giving some of her powers to various female criminals that allow them to change into monsters in order to start a new Panther Claw organization without the help of Dolmeck. She causes a once nice criminal named Gene to go crazy and attempt to blow up Cosplay City with a bomb she and her group stole for money, a carnival robot named Yasha to attack the citizens of Cosplay City as revenge for being abandoned for many decades (killing many humans in the process), a combat sadist named Miss Scorpion to become a neigh invulnerable killing machine with a large body count, and a thief named Gold Digger to become a police killing, money obsessed lunatic. Unfortunately, the series was cancelled, and this is all we got of the new Zora.
Redeeming Qualities?
None whatsoever.
Heinousness?
As the one behind everything in the anime series, she sets the bar.
Conclusion
I think she counts. While she does appear in the anime Cutie Honey Flash!, she doesn’t really count, since she’s kind of a generic villain, and since the show doesn’t have ties to the previous two shows, she doesn’t really have the baggage that would make her count.
And before you ask, Zora doesn’t count in the original manga because unlike this version, she actually cared for Sister Jill, who in that version was Zora’s pet panther who could turn into a human (this series is weird). She hated Honey after Jill was killed, while this version couldn’t care.
It's Spooky Month!
Zora
You know with how many adaptions theve been, I wouldn't be surprised if like Devilman there's like 6. Ironic since no one counts in the original manga and all of this is Adaptional Villany
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Zora.
What's with the inconsistent spelling of Cutie vs. Cutey?
Also, how many effortposts are we expecting? I'm wondering if I should just hold off on the current duo and have them all up at once.
A Joker from anime? Hell, why not. That's pretty much the only form of media he HASN'T done yet (you're still doing Book!Joker, right?).
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You know what add the cutie honey duo to the folder and then when therealjackieboy has done effort posts on all the villains will put them up together.
Keep in mind that this is a 44 year old franchise that's been untouched with maybe dozens of iterations, so we maybe talking a lot that count
edited 1st Dec '17 8:17:27 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Holy moly...yeah, I'll just wait.
Also, I get the strange feeling that I'd like Go Nagai's work, what with the Fanservice and gorn.
edited 1st Dec '17 8:19:59 AM by ACW
The first one with Hela I think fits beter under In Their Own Image rather than Complete Monster
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Alright, I've done all the entries at Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles; I just need to work on the image.
Do me favour change Knight of Cerebus in the entry for Kavaxas to Your Soul Is Mine! as Knight of Cerebus refers to the first villain(s) that darkens a show and that would be Rat king and shredder, not Kavaxas as the show was already dark by the time of his arrival so it's an inappropriate choice for his name.
edited 1st Dec '17 10:35:27 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I'd use the expanded Speedwagon quote for Jo Jo myself. It emphasises how Dio's FE does nothing to explain or justify his actions, which I think is important to get across.
