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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#100651: Nov 23rd 2017 at 3:31:04 PM

Monster.Catfish The TV Show has been cutlisted and the creator notified.

Is their any way to make it so that you just can't just create monster pages (other than an preemptive Permanent Red Link Club, which is unrealistic for every work)?

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#100652: Nov 23rd 2017 at 3:34:24 PM

[tup]Molstrom.

Also, the same troper made a page for Charmed.

edited 23rd Nov '17 3:34:51 PM by Clown-Face

Why so serious?
Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#100653: Nov 23rd 2017 at 3:35:57 PM

Yeah, on second thought, add that chick.

I'm making a copy of that catfish page because I find it hilarious as anything ever. We should also use it as an example of how not make a Complete Monster page.

[tup] To the Ripper and Molstorm.

edited 23rd Nov '17 3:40:21 PM by Vampireandthen

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#100654: Nov 23rd 2017 at 3:38:34 PM

[tup] to John "Jack the Ripper" Stevenson (considering that it sounds like he killed as many people as Jack actually did, I'm a little surprised he was deemed not heinous enough, even ignoring the pattern) and Captain Molstrom.

edited 23rd Nov '17 3:41:23 PM by MGD107

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#100655: Nov 23rd 2017 at 3:57:03 PM

[tup] Aion, [tup] Synn, [tup] yet another Jack the Ripper, and [tup] Molstorm.

edited 23rd Nov '17 3:57:18 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#100656: Nov 23rd 2017 at 3:58:46 PM

[tup] Aion, Synn, Jack the Ripper, and Molstorm.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#100657: Nov 23rd 2017 at 4:00:37 PM

[tup] Captain Molstrom. Interesting design.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#100658: Nov 23rd 2017 at 4:02:26 PM

[tup] Molstrom

Looks like Dopple Dale is a keeper. Thoughts on write up?

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#100659: Nov 23rd 2017 at 4:04:52 PM

[tup] Jack the Ripper (Hey! This is a better JTR than Geoff so thats something [lol])

[tup] Malstrom

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#100660: Nov 23rd 2017 at 4:14:57 PM

@Lighty don’t forget he also bursts out laughing after Rizel/Rizelle’s death

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#100661: Nov 23rd 2017 at 4:17:38 PM

[tup] Anti-Climax Boss Molstrom.

[tup] Jack, at least the 5th CM for David Warner, joining Herbert Landon; Alpha; Jon Irenicus; and Zarm (once).

edited 23rd Nov '17 4:17:46 PM by ACW

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#100662: Nov 23rd 2017 at 4:20:10 PM

I haven't read the past couple of pages, so this may have been dealt with. Someone asked if there was anyone familiar with Buffy who could shed light on why Glory had never been raised before given that she's a Big Bad of the show.

I can't answer for any discussions that might have occurred in the past, but my suspicion is that there could have been a Blue-and-Orange Morality with her in the past coupled with the fact that her increasingly terrible behaviour in the show is due to her ever-deteriorating mental state (insanity being the side effect of trapping a god inside a human form that cannot handle such a powerful being).

It's been shown in the Buffyverse (both Buffy and Angel), that beings who come from other dimensions, or other worlds, or from the time of the Old Ones (before humanity), may not function according to belief sets humans (or those living among humans) may comprehend. They themselves struggle to comprehend this world in which they now find themselves.

For example, Connor, who was kidnapped as a baby and taken to a hell world. Ignoring the obvious factor that his kidnapper groomed him from birth to be Angel's enemy, the show makes it clear that the simple act of living in that hell dimension left him toxic to his very soul, and it contributes a lot to unstable mental state. Even after he's been spiritually cleansed of the toxicity, he never truly regains mental stability. While that is in part because he did not have a loving family raising him, it's also because he was raised in an utterly monstrous world. It screws him over completely for any ability to relate to other humans in a safe, stable way until magic is used to give him an ordinary family life as an ordinary human.

I mention this because that's a human example of how living in a hell dimension can leave a character struggling to adapt to a human world. Glory isn't human. She's a god of an inhuman dimension (a hell realm, as so many of the dimensional worlds are).

She wouldn't be expected to automatically function in a way humanity could get on with, even when dealing with villains. There are several occasions in the show where more ancient demonic beings and forms of evil struggle with even the villains and monsters of the modern world because the existence they come from is so very different.

The bit that might make Glory eligible for the CM trope is her relationship with her native realm. Her love of causing pain and seeking power horrified the two gods she co-ruled the realm with. It led to war. The reason she ends up among humans is because the two gods banish her to the prison of a human in an alien realm (the human world the show is set in), and that's how she ends up inside Ben experiencing a rapidly deteriorating mental state.

To my mind, that's the hook you need to use when deciding whether or not Glory is a CM, and the angle you need to use when writing her up as one: it's not that she's a Big Bad of the human world that stands out. It's the fact that she was so evil, even the gods of her native hell realm were forced to drive her out lest she destroy them and everything they ruled over, which predates the loss of sanity. The problem with this hook is that it's back story. We don't see it, it's just the reason for why she's in Sunnydale, in a human's body, looking for the Key while becoming increasingly insane.

Anyway, I hope that helps rather than hinders. For my part, I would tend to vote: [tdown]

edited 23rd Nov '17 4:43:04 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#100663: Nov 23rd 2017 at 4:24:42 PM

Yes to Jack to Ripper, and as I mentioned before, the aforementioned troper (Anita Shower) created another unapproved monster page.

Why so serious?
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#100664: Nov 23rd 2017 at 4:28:29 PM

[up] That definitely needs to be cut, all the entries are terribly written and most of them don't seem heinous enough anyway.

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#100665: Nov 23rd 2017 at 4:29:27 PM

Well at least Charmed has actually villains instead of people just being jerks to each other.

But I’m actually curious why Charmed has no C Ms. If only watched a few episodes before losing interest, but has the show really villains who pass the heinous standard?

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#100667: Nov 23rd 2017 at 4:49:46 PM

The problem with Charmed was the fact that it was driven by the concept that if someone was born to an evil lineage (warlocks or someone with demonic ancestry) then they were, by nature, evil. Even if they tried to be good, it was only a matter of time before evil consumed them. The one example I recall where they managed to permanently save someone born into evil was a man who was born to the warlock equivalent of the Charmed Ones. He was trying to take his vows to become a priest because literally the only thing that could save him from evil on a permanent basis was the divine grace of God.

Evil has a source. Called The Source (cunning, I know). Even the Source struggles to approach a church and the reason gargoyles exist in the show (that's the stone statues on churches, not monsters or demons) is because they are wards against evil. They sense the Source and sound a warning to the forces of good that the Source has surfaced and is walking among humans.

It's therefore hard to find anyone who has the moral agency to be a defining monster in this show when that moral agency keeps getting taken away from any one with an evil heritage who tries to do good because they keep getting told it's impossible for them to ever be genuinely good, they can only temporarily semi-good for short-term reasons.

Because of this flaw, it's not even possible to define the Source as a CM candidate because the nature of its existence means that there's no such thing as a choice to be good. It's the Source of all evil, after all.

Only innocents and people who awaken to magic (witches, future whitelighters, etc.) have a choice. There's a 48 hour window when a nascent witch first awakens to his or her powers. Neither good nor evil can claim him or her for those first 48 hours (although good and evil can certainly battle each other to sway him or her). Whether they give in to good or bad impulses inside their heart (i.e., uses their magic for an act of good or an act of evil or criminality), is regarded as their 'choice' to make. Once they've made their 'choice', they are claimed by one or the other's side. Once claimed by evil, they're considered evil forever and can never cross sides; Good, of course, can always be convinced to cross over to evil. The show doesn't let it work in reverse, however.

It's actually a pact the Source and Elders struck with each other in ancient times. However, it's also quite noticeable that the brand new witch doesn't have a clue what's going on. They're brand new to even the concept of magic, never mind all these secret rules and deals among beings they don't even know exist. It's therefore hard to define whether or not these nascent witches are making a genuine 'choice'. It certainly doesn't seem to be an informed choice — it even gets lamapshaded as being 'cockamaney' in universe.

edited 23rd Nov '17 5:01:03 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#100668: Nov 23rd 2017 at 5:26:00 PM

Wow.

We need to look through her edit history right now and see what other pages she has created.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
MatLShini Since: Jul, 2014
#100669: Nov 23rd 2017 at 5:31:51 PM

About AC Origins: I haven't played the game, yet I think there is a villain who could fit as a CM.

BTW, what happened to Infinite's writeup? I saw it in the drafts before it was gone, and it wasn't added to the respective pages.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#100670: Nov 23rd 2017 at 5:35:28 PM

I moved Infinite to my Word file with this week's batch.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#100671: Nov 23rd 2017 at 6:31:17 PM

[up][up] Let's wait for Lighty to finish the game, okay?

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#100672: Nov 23rd 2017 at 7:01:52 PM

Posting my batch, will vote oncandidates I missed in a bit.

  • Cybernetics Guardian: Adler is an elitist scientist who wants to exterminate his city's slums. When another scientist, Layla, tries to research a peaceful solution to the violence in the slums, Adler tries to have her test subject, John Stalker, killed. Using a mechanical suit to get revenge after John injures him, Adler goes on a rampage, killing two innocent police officers and threatening Layla while trying to murder John.
  • Maetel Legend (prequel to Galaxy Express 999): Lord Hardgear is a Mad Scientist who wants to encase all of humanity in machine bodies that he can brainwash and control. Convincing the Queen of his planet to undergo the mechanization process, Hardgear has her order her subjects to do the same and threatens to kill those who refuse. During the mechanization process itself, the soul is separated from the body, which Hardgear liquefies and drinks. While fighting the Queen's daughters, Hardgear sends mechanized versions of their friends to attack them, relishing in exercising control over their former comrades.
  • Blood Blockade Battlefront: The King of Despair, the Arc Villain of the anime's first season, is an otherworldly entity that has caused countless tragedies for thousands of years. Possessing the body of a teenaged boy, the King manipulates the boy's sister into bringing him Leo Watch, so his can use Leo's magical eyes for his master plan, promising to leave her brother's body if she does so. As soon as brings him Leo, the King goes back on his promise, fatally shooting her and reveals he intends to use Leo's eyes to destroy the barrier around the city of Hellsalem's Lot that keeps Earth from being torn apart by an alternate dimension. When his ally accuses the King's apocalypse of being too dull, the King responds by telepathically throwing around buildings and summoning a horde of zombies, looking on with delight as the terrified citizens are slaughtered.
  • Chrono Crusade: The anime version of Aion sheds his original counterpart's redeeming qualities to become a remorseless man seeking ultimate power. Beheading the leader of Pandemonium to use her head as part of a ritual, Aion sparks a war in the domain that leads to the death of countless millions. After tearing off the horns of fellow devil Chrono, Aion bestows them to a young boy, Joshua, an apostle needed for his ritual, the horns leading to Joshua having maddening visions and petrifying everyone in his orphanage. Convincing a woman to kill a whole town of people as a sacrifice to him, Aion delights in the control he exerts over others. Conducting his ritual, Aion nearly destroys San Francisco with the energy. When Joshua's sister, Rosette, seemingly stops him, Aion reveals it was really her powers he was after. Brainwashing and kidnapping her, Aion uses Rosette's healing abilities to make her appear a prophet, declaring mankind sinful and trying to have them tear each other apart. Knowing his godhood would come at the price of the destruction of both Earth and Pandemonium, Aion is a selfish man ruled by his own desire.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#100673: Nov 23rd 2017 at 7:05:29 PM

Alright, all, DC candidate #3 from me... and oh? What's this? Another Jack the Ripper, the first from my end, as well? Fret not, because this one's a bit of a fun one. Read on...

What's the setting?

So, this is another Elseworlds candidate... our reimagining for the evening is Wonder Woman set in the 1800s during the Victorian Regime. Wonder Woman: Amazonia follows Diana, who is taken from Paradise Island as a baby by English soldier Stephen Trevor (actually a villain here, albeit one with a lot more nuance than our candidate today) and is raised to eventually become the man's wife. Trevor makes a living showing off Diana's superhuman talents as a sort of circus attraction, earning Diana the name of "Wonder Woman." However, Trevor and Diana unexpectedly find themselves in royal company when Diana stops an assassination attempt... on the King of England. No, not the Queen, the King. King Jack, specifically.

Seeing something wrong yet?

Who is King Jack? What has he done?

Jack Planters is a mysterious American businessman before coming the king of England... taking the throne due to being the cousin of a Plantaget and seemingly the only real fit for the crown after the entire royal family dies in an explosion. Obviously, this is bullshit... Jack, here, is Jack the Ripper himself, who scourges Whitechapel in the late 1880s and gruesomely slaughters four women (the fifth victim is spared in this world) before targeting Victoria herself, setting off an explosion which kills her and almost the entire royal family, the children not spared either. The sole survivor, "Eddy," the Duke of Clarence (and the story's narrator) is paralyzed and completely unable to speak. Jack only spares him to keep him alive as a sort of pet and trophy... a paralyzed wreck who knows fully what Jack did that night but cannot say a word about it all while Jack rules freely.

Upon taking the throne, Jack industrializes the nation... launching brutal, bloody war against France as well for the sole purpose of expanding his territory and eventually fathering a son named Charles through his wife, who appears to die of bedside fever. As king, Jack rules Europe as a dystopian hellhole where the wealthy lavish and women are treated as shit of the earth. When Trevor comes back with the news of the all-female Paradise Island, Jack naturally responds by having the entire island massacred out of paranoia they could be a threat to his regime, letting his soldiers slaughter the Amazonians — who put up a damn good fight but ultimately are overpowered — to the last, Diana the only survivor due to Trevor taking her in on a whim.

Jack initially seems to show gratitude to Diana for saving his life from a mad anarchist who tries to kill King Jack whilst madly raving that Jack killed his daughter and invites Diana and Trevor to dine with him, but slowly grows more and more suspicious of Diana as she starts to fall in love with his son Charles. As the story comes to light, more truths are revealed... when women start vanishing from around Whitechapel again on Jack's orders and Diana uses her recently developed powers of flight to stop the kidnappers, Jack has her drugged and brought to a public arena where the true depths of his cruelty are made apparent. See, Jack and his inner circle of nobility? Are complete, misogynistic loons who gather up women and then hunt and butcher them for sport, Jack pumping up his followers with a drug that erases their "femininity" and leaves them as hulked-up killers possessed by raging bloodlust.

With Diana now as the centerpiece and his noble goons — including Trevor — now hyped up on his drugs, Jack gleefully laughs as they chase Diana and a few of the other women and attempts to implore his son to shoot her dead. When Charles refuses and brings up the little tidbit of Diana saving Jack's life from the mad anarchist, Jack laughs and tells him that the assassin, whom he's since executed and who's severed head he tosses to his son, was his best man until he murdered his teenage daughter in a fit of cruelty, cheerfully reminiscing over showing the young girl her own beating heart in front of her still-living eyes. Jack goes into a rant about how England is a "Ripper's world" now that he's in charge, revealing that he murdered his own wife after she served his purpose of giving her an heir like a hundred women Jack murdered before her, a practice he never intends on stopping on any time soon. As Diana is overpowered by the men, Jack reveals he's sent his men to steal her children — one of them a baby — and conduct tortuous experiments on them for the rest of their lives to see how their superpowers work. Smashing his own son's face in when he resists, Eddy finally gets the resolve to edge himself down towards Jack... sending the wheelchair he's in careening down towards Jack and knocking them both into the arena below. Diana manages to save Eddy just in the nick of time... while Jack meets the business end of one of the spiked traps in the arena below, ending his cruel reign once and for all.

Any mitigating factors?

That's a hoot. Jack's just a raging, misogynistic asshole... initially said to have cared for his wife but later gloating that he murdered her in the first place and telling Charles to his own face that the only value as a son he has to Jack is that of an heir he intends to mold into a bloodthirsty psychopath like him solely so he can have a legacy. And naturally, he obliterates the heinous standard; hunting and sadistically murdering girls and women for sport is one thing, but there's tons of mass murder with no children spared either, keeping the sole survivor of one of these massacres as his paralyzed trophy, murdering his own wife for pleasure, and plunging his own nation into a brutal war after turning it into a dystopia where women are non-human at best and cattle to be hunted at worst. Nothing to talk about here.

Conclusion?

Well, for yet another Jack the Ripper candidate and hopefully a more unique one than the usual? I say he keeps. Easily, even for the character — how's that for my first Ripper for the thread?

Thoughts?

edited 23rd Nov '17 7:21:35 PM by Scraggle

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#100674: Nov 23rd 2017 at 7:17:39 PM

Easy, easy [tup] to Scraggle's version of Jack the Ripper. We now have 3 JTR in a row. One was voted down and two are keeps.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#100675: Nov 23rd 2017 at 7:19:16 PM

[tup] King Jack. Steve Trevor is a character who's often been said to have a lot of creepy subtext to him; interesting they made that text here. What happens to him by the way?


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