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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Voyd211 (Edited uphill both ways)
#100526: Nov 22nd 2017 at 11:37:51 AM

Hmm...

Is there a history of characters who claim to be Blue and Orange, but are still clearly evil? Or would that fall under the header of Above Good and Evil?

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#100527: Nov 22nd 2017 at 11:40:43 AM

It depends on how it's written. I believe Necron from Blackest Night was intended to have Blue-and-Orange Morality but in actuality he just came across as a sadist. So execution is important, Blue-and-Orange Morality is also a pretty misused trope in general.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#100528: Nov 22nd 2017 at 11:41:24 AM

Voyd, do you have a particular candidate these questions apply to or are you just asking these questions for the sake of it? We want legitimate discussion here.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#100529: Nov 22nd 2017 at 11:43:38 AM

Yes we have some characters who don't have Blue-and-Orange Morality like junko enoshima and Bill cipher and just put the air of that trope but are who are able to fully understand the difference between right and wrong.

A character like Beerus or Irving Reinhardt from Dies Irae would not count as they are legitemetly on a different wavelength and don't understand normal human emotions quite right.

edited 22nd Nov '17 11:44:39 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Voyd211 (Edited uphill both ways)
#100530: Nov 22nd 2017 at 11:52:34 AM

In the case of Blue and Orange Morality; no, I was simply curious.

I do have another possible candidate, but I don't know the complete scope of his actions: Giga, from Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo.

He seems like a sick bastard, but I only have one volume of that manga, and no real access to any more, so I am in no position to effortpost for him.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#100531: Nov 22nd 2017 at 11:54:54 AM

Bobobo is a straight comedy series.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#100532: Nov 22nd 2017 at 11:57:57 AM

Uh yeah that's sort of a weird choice. It's the equivalent of effort-posting the guy from Dr Slump. Theres no seriousness here as everything is played for laughs.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#100533: Nov 22nd 2017 at 12:58:29 PM

Please don't do anything on Bobobo. Please.

Also, I think that if anyone thinks something should be rewritten, instead of asking "Should this be rewritten?" just rewrite it yourself, give it to us and we can decide.

When I rewrote Deathshead I didn't ask permission. I did it, presented it and got accepted. Asking such questions doesn't contribute much without anything to offer in return.

Again, this goes back to how we all have to do our own bit here. No passing the buck.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Voyd211 (Edited uphill both ways)
#100535: Nov 22nd 2017 at 1:28:56 PM

Fair enough. I mentioned Giga because despite living in that universe, the story and (most of) the characters DO take him seriously.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#100536: Nov 22nd 2017 at 1:45:12 PM

Okay, Voyd. Learn how we do things here. Frankly, it's really difficult to take your word on that account with your track record in this thread. The constant Single-Issue Wonk, the refusal to participate in basic courtesy on other peoples' candidates and discussions, and your difficulty in grasping how heinousness works is not helping us trust your word on this.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#100537: Nov 22nd 2017 at 1:59:07 PM

So, played a new haunt in Betrayal at House on the Hill the other day. And I found a traitor that I'm kinda conflicted about if they count. Making an effort post to see what you guys think.

Who are they? What do they do?

The traitor in the haunt The Prism, who will be the player that failed the haunt roll that triggered this haunt, is an immoral mechanic who views other humans as little more than the equivalent of lab rats. Prior to the haunt, the traitor modifed the titular house into becoming a death trap that s/he can rearrange at will, placing several traps to slowly torture and kill the explorers within the house. It's revealed that this group of explorers is simply one of dozens that the traitor befriended and led to the house to be killed by his experiments (the traitor refers to the group as "22 B", so unless there's no particular order of which group is selected, at least 43 groups of people were deceived and killed by this person's experiment prior, and even then, there's at least 43 other groups of people the traitor has to be placed in their death trap next)

The house is filled with gass that slowly dissolves the explorers alive, putting the explorers on a timelimit to discover the "heart of the experiment" (basically the hidden lab that the traitor is in for the whole haunt). To do this, the explorers have to go through traps, deactivate them risking their lives, and at the very end of the experiment, have to happen to be in the room that the traitor selected to be the "heart of the experiment", meaning that if the players don't choose the correct tile that represents the traps out of the over 20 that have been placed, it's game over (this haunt isn't very balenced as you might have guessed)

If the traitor wins, the explorers all die and the traitor goes on to continue his experiment with other groups of people. If the explorers win however...the Traitor shoots the explorer who discovered the hidden lair dead, and has the rest killed by the house. We have a pretty blatant Karma Houdini here.

Heinousness by the standards of the story?

Out of all the traitors who don't have supernatural powers or supernatural allies on their side, easily the worst of the lot, and even including the supernatural traitors, only the ones who flat out bring the appocalypse outdo this traitor, having caused the deaths of countless people For Science! and deliberately making it as slow and painful as possible for them. The only thing that makes me hesistate is we don't see the bodies of the people s/he's killed prior to the haunt so this traitor might have a lower body count than the likes of Zoe Ingstrom or the Stacked Like Cordwood traitor, but even then the fact that the haunts makes clear that this traitor has at least 21 other groups of people that either have been or will be killed by his/her experiment makes me think that isn't too big an issue.

Freudian Excuse?

None.

Any other mitigating factors?

This is what bothers me. Personality wise, this traitor is pretty flat. We can tell that they're immoral, and it's shown that s/he enjoys their hobby with experimenting on people, but that's about all. The traitor doesn't particularly show joy in making the deaths as slow and agonizing as possible, they just do it anyway. S/He has personality...but barely any.

Final Thoughts?

Not certain about them being included, but I want to know what you guys think.

edited 22nd Nov '17 2:12:25 PM by Awesomekid42

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#100538: Nov 22nd 2017 at 2:02:36 PM

Gonna say nay. Too concerned with the heinous standard at this point.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#100539: Nov 22nd 2017 at 2:07:28 PM

[tdown] the Traitor and also wtf to the ending. That's a massive middle finger to the explorer team.

@ Voyd, I've got a few pointers to help you out. I'd say save the questions for the mitigating factors of EPs you do, as that's what they're all pertaining to. Also, as Lighty pointed out, please engage in discussion on our candidates as we do for yours, in the interest of being courteous. If you don't feel you can make adequate judgement on it, please indicate you're abstaining after reading the EP. Aim to keep all posts with the interest of moving discussion forward.

edited 22nd Nov '17 2:13:46 PM by 43110

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#100540: Nov 22nd 2017 at 2:16:17 PM

[tdown] Wizzro. Not remotely among the Legend of Zelda's more heinous villains.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#100541: Nov 22nd 2017 at 2:52:41 PM

[tdown] Wizzro and [tdown] the Traitor.

And since I'm still yet to get any objections.

  • Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Glorificius aka Glory from season five was one of three God's who ruled over a Hell dimension before the other two became frightened at her cruelty, power and ambition, exiling her after a war between them. Banished into a human host named Ben, Glory fights Ben for control and gradually ruins his life in the process. Glory seeks the Key to return to her home dimension, knowing but not caring that the price would be for the barriers of reality to break down and all of existence to be consumed into eternal Hell. A vain and vicious goddess, Glory personally kills and tortures anyone who gets in her way to find the Key, wiping out monks and an entire army of knights in the process. Glory frequently feeds by draining the minds of numerous victims; describing in detail to be a horrific fate that she inflicts on her victims, that she sometimes uses as a means of torture. Realizing the Key is someone in Buffy's life, she pays Buffy a visit promising to kill her loved ones and force her to watch until she gets what she wants, and later tortures Spike for information. Glory also tortures Tara, breaking her hand and fingers in heavily crowded area and threatening to kill everyone around them if Tara screams out before draining Tara's mind. Upon discovering the Key is incarnate as Buffy's fourteen year old sister Dawn, Glory wastes no time in kidnapping her, and delights in tormenting her in preparation for the ritual that entails slowly bleeding Dawn out in order to open all the Hell Gates. Despite her ditzy and superficial demeanour, Glory makes it no secret of her personal cruelty and ruthlessness, and manages to be one of the most dangerous and biggest threats faced by the Scoobies.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#100542: Nov 22nd 2017 at 3:08:46 PM

To be honest... with this traitor lacking the supernatural resources of many of the others while apparently being the nastiest of the non-powered ones otherwise, I'm tempted to actually give them a weak yes with the caveat that we need to reevaluate a few others currently listed as a result. A Little Night Murder's traitor, the Crimson Jack one, and Creature from the Lake mainly, but even a few of the apocalyptic ones seem a bit cut-and-dry... Comes the Hero and The Stars Are Right seem fairly identical to each other, for instance, especially in comparison to the traitor from Ring of King Solomon and their ultimate goal which sounds quite a bit nastier than "just' destroying the world.

edited 22nd Nov '17 3:15:21 PM by Scraggle

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#100543: Nov 22nd 2017 at 3:14:04 PM

As no one's raised any points against her, [tup] to Glory.

I'll also give a [tup] to the Traitor. Sure the series sounds like it has a high heinous standard, but they have a unique MO. Besides, out of the non-supernatural monsters we have a guy who fed an unspecified number of people to a monster to see how big it would grow, someone who killed his family and helpers out of greed, and a Psycho Supporter.

A sadistic Trap Master sounds about as bad.

Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#100544: Nov 22nd 2017 at 3:28:06 PM

[tdown]To Wizzro. As for the Traitor.....weak [tup].

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#100545: Nov 22nd 2017 at 3:34:32 PM

Yeah, I'd agree with Scraggle on re- evaluating some other traitors, primarily Madame Zostra, the Creature from the Lake traitor and the traitor from Little Night Murder.

edited 22nd Nov '17 4:32:57 PM by Awesomekid42

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#100546: Nov 22nd 2017 at 3:37:10 PM

I too support re-evaluating the other Traitors. And if we need a new quote, here might be a good source.

EDIT: As is, if we get up the new traitor, that'd be 20% of all traitors (10/50), which seems somewhat high.

edited 22nd Nov '17 3:44:15 PM by ACW

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#100547: Nov 22nd 2017 at 3:44:03 PM

[up] I don't think we'll need to worry about the Ring of Solomon traitor, who's the one the quote refers to, going anywhere.

There's actually 100 haunts due to the Widows Walk expansion. That's the one that has The Prism haunt.

edited 22nd Nov '17 3:45:57 PM by Awesomekid42

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#100548: Nov 22nd 2017 at 4:14:54 PM

I suppose I can [tup] the newest traitor. A question on the game, however: are they all set in the same verse, or is each scenario completely separate? If the latter, does that mean we should consider each scenario's heinous standard as being separate or is this game one of our few exceptions to this rule due to the nature of the game?

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#100549: Nov 22nd 2017 at 4:21:24 PM

Each haunt is in a different universe, but with the same setting

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#100550: Nov 22nd 2017 at 4:43:01 PM
Thumped: Please see The Rules . This is a warning that this post is the sort of thing that will get you suspended.

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