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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#99401: Nov 12th 2017 at 2:34:02 AM

[tup] Zordar, Whitehead, Vicus and Litchthammer

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#99402: Nov 12th 2017 at 2:50:19 AM

[tup] to Lichthammer, Vicus, Zordar, Whitehead, Savak and Golden Age!Hitler.

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#99403: Nov 12th 2017 at 3:35:07 AM

I wonder, is it possible for us to cut Manfred Von Karma from Ace Attorney? I know he done bad things, but I have a few points to bring up.

  • Manfred is one of the more honorable culprit, when he was caught he was ready to accept the verdict even telling the judge to do it. He even subtly mention that he treats Phoenix as a Worthy Opponent.

  • He has love ones coming from his wife and daughter. He mentioned some lines in Ace Attorney Investigation 1 and 2 about them. He allows Franziska to prove herself in a case headed by Edgeworth and even shows a warm relationship with her, and he mentions that he loves his wife cooking.

  • Compared to Blaise Debeste a character I plan to make a nomination soon, his crimes are lesser then him. Blaise is even treats his legitimate son worse than whatever Von Karma did, I'll explain that in his entree.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#99404: Nov 12th 2017 at 3:53:06 AM

I dont think we can cut Von karma as the stuff with his family is to ambigious too say he actually has loved ones and him raising edgeworth too become a cold blooded prosecutor who is the opposite of his father's ideals and then getting him framed for said murder is one of the cruelest things iv ever seen a villain do. Also thanks to being crooked and willing to do anything to win, he actually has one of the highest body counts as he's framed countless people just to win and sent them to death row.

[down]Looks good and add to drafts with where hes from.

edited 12th Nov '17 4:07:00 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DukeNukem4ever Since: Jan, 2017
#99405: Nov 12th 2017 at 4:03:26 AM

Okay, I am going to make a rewrite for the Doctor.

Complete Monster: Herman Carter, also known as "The Doctor", lacks any redeeming qualities in contrast to many other killers, who have some form of tragedy or sympathy in their backstory. At first, he was simply a lunatic that became fascinated with the brain. However, as the time went on, Carter became drunk on the power his human experimentation gave him. His sadistic streak made him notorious among the organization that hired him, mostly because of constant screaming and crying coming from his lab. Eventually, Herman turned on his mentor and brutally murdered him before The Entity took note of him and gave him his current powers just to cause more madness. Even as a Killer, The Doctor clearly revels in the misery and madness he causes to the survivors. While most of the Killers rely on power and strength to claim their victims, The Doctor is a sadistic monster who specifically relies on Mind Rape to claim lives.

So... What would you say about this?

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#99406: Nov 12th 2017 at 4:18:56 AM

[tup] to Karl Savak, Ultra-Humanite, Hitler, Flock Leader Whithead, Govenor Vicus and Fräulein Hanne Lichthammer.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#99407: Nov 12th 2017 at 4:23:30 AM

I'm unsure if we could cut Von Karma actually. Sure......Blaise/Bansai is pretty bad and was brought here before. But he got voted down due to offscreen villainy and not being heinous enough compared to the likes of von Karma,Dahlia or Engarde. But we'll see if there is some new info regarding Blaise and I'm all ears

edited 12th Nov '17 4:24:10 AM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#99408: Nov 12th 2017 at 4:35:24 AM

[tup]Jericho duo, Zordar and Golden Age duo

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#99409: Nov 12th 2017 at 4:54:00 AM

[up] Believe me when I say I have a strong counter against the Off Screen Villainy argument, and honestly the reason I reconsider cutting Von Karma is because I always hear that Pet the Dog moments or anything slighty good will disqualify you automatically no matter how heinous your crimes are. I thought that argument could be use to disqualify Von Karma.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#99410: Nov 12th 2017 at 5:18:23 AM

@The Immortal Angel Newton Ok, Now I'm all ears regarding why Bansai Ichiyanagi/Blaise Debeste qualifies in your opinion and I hope the new info could held the strong counterargument. Also, I still think Von Karma should stay and he doesn't go anywhere. I remember people like Demon Duck Of Doom and Clown-Face voted Bansai down

And keep in mind, Bansai also shares the universe with Simon Keyes/Sota Sarushiro and Quercus Alba....But in terms of resources, I think Bansai still lose to Alba but he's still a prick. But how does he compared to Simon Keyes/Sota Sarushiro? (I know the latter doesn't qualify as a CM due to his woobie status but i heard that he's pretty bad)

edited 12th Nov '17 5:27:23 AM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#99411: Nov 12th 2017 at 5:27:03 AM

[up][up]Alright Im actually curious what arguments you have as multiple villains went up this year who have been discussed before with better arguments for there inclusion, so im all ears for blasie.

edited 12th Nov '17 5:29:10 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#99412: Nov 12th 2017 at 5:31:57 AM

[tup] Savak, Ultra-Humanite, Hitler, Whitehead, Zordar, Vicus, and Lichthammer. I'm not so sure about Patti, she doesn't quite sound heinous enough for the genre to me.

Regarding Ace Attorney, I am a little skeptical of any future candidates for the simple fact that every game in the series has a qualifier except Investigations 2. I'm not really arguing that anyone be cut necessarily but it just feels a bit weird to me.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#99413: Nov 12th 2017 at 5:35:14 AM

[tup] Whitehead, Zordar, Vicus, and Lichthammer.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#99414: Nov 12th 2017 at 5:35:34 AM

Gah, I hate waking up and finding like 7 effortposts.

I'll let those more versed in the game discuss Manfred.

[tup] Savak; Golden Age duo; Zordar; Whitehead (what happens to him BTW?).

Seems despite what was said, Lichthammer has enough onscreen crimes to count (as does Vicus, for that matter). [tup] Jericho duo.

BTW, the mods are VERY behind. Last week's batch STILL hasn't been added yet.

edited 12th Nov '17 5:44:01 AM by ACW

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#99415: Nov 12th 2017 at 5:43:42 AM

[up]To be fair man that was during the days when our understanding of Offscreen Villany was awful compared to now. Hell saying Vilgax in that same post runs into Offscreen Villany is a really dubious notion and frankly wrong. The fact she apparently carves her path with thousands of her victims is way more than enough.

edited 12th Nov '17 5:45:35 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#99416: Nov 12th 2017 at 5:55:57 AM

Regarding von Karma himself, I think the stuff with Franziska may be enough to cut. I haven't played the Investigations games so I can't say for sure though.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#99417: Nov 12th 2017 at 6:01:41 AM

Wish that Shaoken was here so that he could elaborate why von Karma still a CM though

Also, [tup] Cassius,Whitehead and Lichthammer........For Cassius & Lichthammer..........Eeep

edited 12th Nov '17 6:02:20 AM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#99418: Nov 12th 2017 at 6:06:19 AM

Yeah, for how bad Casus is? He might be The Caligula, except that he was so bad that the ACTUAL Caligula banished him. You KNOW you're bad when you have Caligula himself pull an Even Evil Has Standards.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#99419: Nov 12th 2017 at 6:18:05 AM

P.S. I wonder why Maltheus doesn't count?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#99420: Nov 12th 2017 at 6:22:17 AM

[up][up]Yeah with how bad they are, im shocked it took so long to put them back with how caius apparently has thousands of people crucifxed onscreen and littermacher has an entire path made of thousands of her victims. Like a ton of villains who were wrongfully cut back in 2012 were put back and yet we still havent put everyone who counts back up even 5 years later.

edited 12th Nov '17 6:27:13 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#99421: Nov 12th 2017 at 6:29:33 AM

[tup] Zordar, Whitehead, Vicus and Litchthammer.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#99422: Nov 12th 2017 at 6:34:56 AM

The ONLY thing I could think of with Maltheus is that maybe he's TOO batshit crazy to count?

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#99423: Nov 12th 2017 at 7:01:17 AM

Manfred's been bought up a lot, and as far as I'm concerned he's going nowhere. His status as a Graceful Loser isn't mitigating: he's simply trying to leave the courtroom with as much dignity as he can salvage from being outed as a murderer, emotionally abusive adopted parent, and all-around scumbag.

Likewise, I wouldn't call his relationship with his daughter and wife disqualifying either: While a lesser case than Edgeworth, Manfred rears Franziska up as an extension of himself and wants to mold her into a ruthless prosecutor who will carry on his legacy: his acting seemingly decent to her acts as a way to keep her on that path. His allowing Franziska to assist Edgeworth isn't really a Pet the Dog thing and more of a "Eh, I've got the manpower here to assist with a case. So why not?" kind of thing. And as for his wife... I believe the only mention of her was him mentioning that he liked her cooking... and that's it. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me, but I'm not inclined to view it as mitigating.

So overall? Manfred I think is an example of how a Complete Monster doesn't have to be a moustache-twirling, puppy-kicking asshole every waking moment of his life: he's capable of being polite and even acting seemingly decent in public. But at the end of the day? He's still a horrible, nasty person whose kids are a means to an end, nothing more.

Anyway, THAT sure went on for a good long while.To catch up: Yes to Ultra Humanite, Hitler (Kinda funny that this is his third incarnation in Superman-related media to count), Karl Savak, and Whitehead.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#99424: Nov 12th 2017 at 7:04:38 AM

Yeah Manfred doesnt really love franskia, he wants her to be what he wants and simply wanted to make her an exact copy of him rather than actually loving her.

Actual love is when you put somones needs or wants above your own and want them to be happy. Its not von karma wanting her to be just like him and pressuring her into that or queen rhea abusing her son and killing her husband when they wouldn't do what she says.

edited 12th Nov '17 7:11:50 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#99425: Nov 12th 2017 at 7:30:14 AM

FW: Hitler's 3rd incarnation? I know there's Superman: At Earth's End, but what else?


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