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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#98626: Oct 31st 2017 at 9:43:56 PM

[up][up] Alright, tip here, Vampire... picking out examples purely for the intent of trying to get a page for them isn't good practice. At all. Please refrain from example-hunting.

I think Jian's entry still needs to be trimmed. You should be heading for no more than 250 words with him — we don't want every entry nearing the base of 300.

Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#98627: Oct 31st 2017 at 9:46:12 PM

[up]I just said eventually, didn't mean anything like that.

Also, are you serious? I was told it should be about 300 words.

This aggravates me....

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#98628: Oct 31st 2017 at 9:47:25 PM

Future...I think you need to comment less until you get a handle on how to contribute constructively. This "I have random thoughts that have nothing to do with the current direction" need to end.

Jian needs to be trimmed down still so it's like 200-250 words if it can be helped.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#98629: Oct 31st 2017 at 9:49:42 PM

Yeah, all I'll say on Ahmanet... digging up half-formed arguments in an attempt to stir a discussion that was months concluded because of a vague feeling that she "might not belong" isn't how this works. If you watch the film and you think there's a legitimate bit we missed that might complicate her qualification? By all means, let us know. If you're not?

The candidate was brought up, voted on, agreed to fit the criteria, and listed. If there's nothing else to be said, it's a done deal. The pointless comments need to stop.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#98630: Oct 31st 2017 at 9:57:19 PM

I went back and looked at the original discussion and there was some reluctance despite the unanimity and I thought it possibly might have merit.

Everyone was uneasy, but everyone agreed a keeper’s a keeper and that’s how it’s gonna be.

She counts. It’s sloppy, but she counts. End of story.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#98631: Oct 31st 2017 at 9:58:32 PM

Alright, the movie I wanted to watch wasn't streaming so here's a trimmed version of Jian—kept his villainy intact pretty easily and got it down to just <200 words—and a rewrite for K:

  • Invasion America: Jian Hong, Agricultural Minister of Greater China, stages an attack on an American oil rig to gain favor with the Chairman and discredit his rival. After convincing the Chairman to invade Alaska, leading to the deaths of thousands, Jian assassinates him to take power. Using his network to install a puppet government in Mexico, leading to the nation being stripped of food, he goes on to launch an invasion of America, triggering a third World War. Objective-minded, Jian sacrifices over two million of his own soldiers to destroy an American tank plant. To keep America isolated, Jian increases tensions between them and Germany by staging a nuclear terrorist attack. Shipping missiles to Mexico, Jian has them launched at America, killing a million. Upon being invaded by a joint force of American and Russian soldiers, Jian forcibly drafts civilians as frontline troops. When the Australians revolt against his tyranny, Jian punishes their uprising with a genocide killing seven million of them. Even as his own country is torn apart by the war with America, Jian stubbornly refuses to surrender his power, murdering almost his entire government for failing to find him a solution for the war he brought on.

  • From the New World: The boy referred to as "K" note , is a flashback character, whose tale warns society to not allow a person's psychic abilities to go unchecked. Pleas by his teacher to address his sociopathic tendencies ignored, K impulsively decided to attack everyone in sight, slaughtering any he could find in his school and then the whole village, the death toll reaching one thousand. Abnormal from others in that his psychic abilities would not kill him when he attacked other humans, K delighted in massacring helpless people.

edited 31st Oct '17 11:00:34 PM by 43110

ThePest179 Since: Jul, 2015
#98632: Oct 31st 2017 at 10:06:45 PM

I'll count up the votes for "Joe" in the morning since right now I'm too drunk to do much. I already addressed the agency problems though, so if you feel he doesn't count in spite of my arguments, that's okay.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#98634: Oct 31st 2017 at 10:40:43 PM

[tup] Tony, Toby, Edgar, Rumpelstiltskin and Fane.

  • All-Star Superman: Solaris the Tyrant Sun is a gigantic computer that wanders the cosmos, consuming stars for fuel and leaving the inhabited planets to die in The Night That Never Ends. Contacted by Lex Luthor to assist him in his master plan to defeat a dying Superman, Solatis turns the Sun red in an attempt to depower the Man of Steel. Supes counteracts this and leads an army of sapient robots to battle Solaris, but he destroys the army in one blast before announcing his plan to betray Luthor, consume the Sun and force the Earthlings to worship him as a deity or freeze to death in eternal darkness. Superman then tries to feed the Tyrant Sun to a Sun-Eater, but Solaris destroys it. Before Superman destroys the mad machine, Solaris turns the Sun blue to spite Superman by destroying his people.

ACW, this one will go in the "Other Continuities" section of the page.

Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#98635: Oct 31st 2017 at 10:47:26 PM

Why are people better at making CM sheets than me....

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#98636: Oct 31st 2017 at 10:49:49 PM

This isn't rocket science, Vampire. Practice and learn.

Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#98637: Oct 31st 2017 at 10:56:23 PM

I feel maybe the sheet could use a few more tweeks here and there, such as clarification that is was nuclear missiles that were launched.

edited 31st Oct '17 10:57:17 PM by Vampireandthen

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#98638: Oct 31st 2017 at 10:58:59 PM

I left in that it killed a million people, really all that matters is the catastrophe... type of missiles aren't really relevant.

[down] The writeup has him killing 8+ million of his enemies and letting at least 2 million of his own die. The convention of the use of mass weapons can be inferred.

edited 31st Oct '17 11:09:53 PM by 43110

Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#98639: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:03:50 PM

I think it matters because he made nuclear warfare a part of conventional warfare. That's gotta count for something.

Still, it's good overall.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#98640: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:05:26 PM

Got another candidate ready to add. Erol of Jak 3

What is the work?

Jak 3 is the third game of the Jak series which originally was a regular platformer that evolved to a platforming action game similar to Ratchet and Clank. And in this third game, the main plot continues from the second game where another war happened with now two main enemy factions and inner political warfare, with this nasty individual being in the midst of the entire thing.

Who is he and what does he do?

Erol was originally from the second game where he served The Dragon for one of the main villains there, Baron Praxis the Complete Monster for the series. He serves as a rival to Jak in the racing mini-game while also being a complete Jerkass to the duo of heroes. If this was his only crime along with leading a corrupt military force in martial law which results in plenty of indiscriminate killing and social issues it wouldn't be enough. However, he takes the role of the main antagonist for the 3rd game.

In his new role, he now leads the Dark Makers, an alien race that's main goal is to destroy everything and everyone they ever come across to. Wanting revenge on Jak for making him into a cyborg, despite the blame squarely on his own brash attitude, Erol plans to lead the Dark Makers to destroy Jak's world. This includes hijacking the main weapon manufacturing factory, programming them to attack everyone in sight, sending out his Dark Makers to wreak havoc and overall causing almost all the events of the war.

His end goal is to summon the Dark Maker fleet to start the end of the world with him crusading the entire invasion. When Jak is able to finish the fleet off by boarding the main ship and then causing the Dark Maker's destruction, Erol in a desperate move takes one of the Dark Maker's war machines and lands back on Jak's world (They never mentioned the name). With that he tries to send the war mech to village that save Jak in the beginning of the game to destroy it out of his hatred for Jak. In the end Jak stops Erol and blows him too kingdom come. Despite seeming like a generic Evil Overlord, what sets him apart is we see his transformation to a petty and semi-dangerous asshole, to a world-destroying hatred driven monster.

Heinousness?

Out of all the villains in the Jak series, Erol is the only one who wants to destroy the world. While the others have done cruel and evil deeds, Erol was the only treat to the world. Even villains like Kor and Baron Praxis had a goal of world dominance, but Erol just wants to destroy out of his own anger.

Mitigating Factor?

People might think Erol doesn't have enough screentime, but throughout the 3rd game we see everything Erol does by the mission system the game has. So while Erol isn't always on screen, we see his deeds indirectly in the game with the actions of Dark Makers. He is the leader and commander of the entire force, and the final mission displays how dangerous he is himself.

Also some people might think his crush on Kiera would disqualify him, but that was in the second game where in the 3rd game he long pass that. I don't think it means anything when he plans to blow her up along with the world.

Final Verdict:

If someone like Baron Praxis can make it, Erol is definitely shoe in.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#98641: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:14:11 PM

My fundamental issue with Erol... the leap from jackass rival to Jak to Omnicidal Maniac is a huge one and it's not necessarily out of the question he was driven completely off the edge sanity-wise after his exposure to that much Dark Eco (as what happened to Gol and Maia). That, and once Erol actually becomes as vile as he is, we're given no real motivation as to why — again, leaving out the possibility that he was driven insane. I really can't support Erol because of this.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#98642: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:18:39 PM

Holy crap : Ok catching up

[tup] Tak, [tup] Takada, [tdown] Joe, [tup] K, [tup] Uncle Edgar, [tup] Fane, [tup] Tony and [tup] Toby as well as [tup]Rumplestilskin

[down] I'll rescind my yes for Errol for now and wait for other opinions. Meanwhile I'll try and get an effort-post on Mephisto from a fanfic to complete the day.

edited 1st Nov '17 7:30:13 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#98643: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:27:10 PM

Well, about the no indication bit here... I'm interested about Scraggle's point. I don't know a whole lot about the series but I see others got corrupted by the same substance.

This seems to have a little more background than the one off, "Hey, Kefka was driven nuts!" line.

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#98644: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:42:37 PM

I brought up Erol (In the second game it's spelled Erol, in the third, it's spelled Errol) years ago, and the argument against him was that he essentially becomes a Generic Doomsday Villain in the third game. There is no explanation how he went from just an asshole to wanting to destroy the world. In the second game, he's Praxis's lackey, in the third, he wants to destroy the world, and they never explain why he wants to destroy the world. If the game had said that he was shunned because of his new cybernetic appearance, and that's why, or he wanted revenge on Jak for his accident, than maybe, but there is no explanation. All of his previous traits are gone, and he's become a completely different person.

jjj
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#98645: Oct 31st 2017 at 11:48:05 PM

[up][up] That's the big thing here... we see in detail what Erol was like before his exposure to Dark Eco. When we next see him? He's almost an entirely different character. Dark Eco is explicitly shown to have extremely corruptive properties — Jak himself is reduced to a feral brute whenever he taps into his own Dark Eco powers — and I can't reliably trust Erol's agency when the change in character is that radical and it's coupled with something that's explicitly shown to cause radical changes in people overexposed to it if it doesn't just kill them.

edited 31st Oct '17 11:48:47 PM by Scraggle

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ChaoticQueen Since: Mar, 2011
#98647: Nov 1st 2017 at 12:38:14 AM

[tdown] for Erol. The dark eco has pretty clearly warped his mind.

Quick question. For Death Note, does the manga example include the anime? I ask because it specifically says "manga" and I know Light gets an Alas, Poor Villain death in the anime as opposed to the Undignified Death in the manga.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#98648: Nov 1st 2017 at 12:42:00 AM

[up] No, he is an example of a villain who only counts in the manga rather than the anime adaptation like Father and [[Manga/Erased Gaku Yoshiro]]. His anime incarnation does not count.

edited 1st Nov '17 12:42:58 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ChaoticQueen Since: Mar, 2011
#98649: Nov 1st 2017 at 12:51:00 AM

[up] Got it. Is it only for the Alas, Poor Villain moment? Or are there other factors?

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#98650: Nov 1st 2017 at 12:53:48 AM

[up] It's mainly because of the Alas, Poor Villain moment, IIRC.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.

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