During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I don't really want to buy The Evil Within 2 at this juncture. There is too much on this plate of mine. But I am curious.
Yeah, I don't watch RWBY, so I'm staying out of this one. Though I'll give some thoughts on the idea of responsibility: Usually, the villain who orders the atrocity is the one we consider culpable. However, if their servant is left to their own devices, they can stand out on their own depending on their methods.
Big Bad says that the city must be destroyed. That's bad. There's also no further details.
The Dragon then starts fires, riots, enacts public executions, spreads disease, poisons food and water and turns children into suicide bombers. I think the one being ordered to destroy the city has done enough to breach the heinous standard.
This was just a hypothetical, of course. A thought experiment to help focus our views.
I might watch a let's play of evil within 2 except I need to know how stefano valentini and father theodore compare to the people from the first game.
Father theodore and Stefano valenti
In the mean time Im also preparing effort-posts on these two :
Satan Egos
and Takeru Yamato
Wait if takeru was the guy who was possessing the corpse of ouken during the whole series would that not make him the Big Bad rather than the Greater-Scope Villain or am I missing something.
Annabelle as I guess she is worse than valek.
edited 30th Oct '17 6:19:12 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Write-up for Lucius Wagner:
- Son of Lucifer, Lucius Wagner was born in the Wagner household via a deal made by his grandfather and his true father for wealth and power where he was destined to bring forth the end of the world. Committing his first murder at the age of six, Lucius was then called for by Lucifer to fulfill his destiny, with his first task being increasing his power. The only way he could is by killing more individuals, and Lucius coldly does what he was told while showing a silent enjoyment towards his gruesome serial killing by making witty and clever comments about his kills in his journal and manipulating everything to look like an accident. Once nearly done with his role, Lucius kills his beloved mother despite raising him with love, and then framing his father for the crimes. In the second game continuing these events, Lucius continues his bloody spree of crimes despite being abandoned by Lucifer, and in the beginning of the game kills a nun despite having no power. He then hunts down more victims to cover up his tracks while also increasing his own power to bring forth the end and killing any potential sons of the devil despite being his siblings. Lucius may be the son of the devil, but it doesn't change that he's human and had all the choice to decide for himself. But it didn't matter to the child born to be evil.
edited 30th Oct '17 4:53:12 AM by TheImmortalAngelNewton
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
Paulette and Anabelle
Also quick question about RWBY. Who do you think is a potential candidate for Complete Monster? I know we won't be picking anyone yet until the show ends, but so far I'm leaning at Adam. Salem not so much for showing some type of motherly affection to his servants, and Cinder isn't anymore evil then his associates. Also Adam is so bad he isn't in RWBY Chibi, sink that in.
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
I thnk we ignore Rwby chibi as it is not canon and just take the normal show into consideration. I personaaly think adam will count this season as they have ramped up his evil. Salem is also a contender but we need more information.
Alright I want to add something to the right-up for the bat fangire as well as cut some unnecessary detail.
original : The Bat Fangire, more commonly known as the 1986 King, is a ruthless tyrant who fails to understand the concept of love. As the original lord of all Fangires, the King uses his position to annihilate the Merman and Franken races, as well as persecute Jiro (the last Wolfen). When he finds out that his wife Maya has fallen in love with Otoya Kurenai (the original Kamen Rider Ixa), the King offers Jiro, as well as the sole surviving Merman and Franken (Ramon and Riki respectively), a chance to avoid extermination in exchange for killing Otoya. When they choose to escape instead, the King forcibly transforms them into Empathic Weapons. He then kidnaps Otoya and attempts to use his life energy to feed Castle Doran, the King's living castle. When Otoya escapes, the King exposes his lack of any sense of love toward his own wife by using the life of his own son, Taiga Nobori (Kamen Rider Saga), as blackmail to prevent her from seeing Otoya again. This disgusts Kivat-bat the 2nd, who is meant to be the King's loyal Transformation Trinket, so much that he offers Otoya a chance to become Kamen Rider Dark Kiva in order to destroy the King.
rewrite : The Bat Fangire, more commonly known as the 1986 King, is a ruthless tyrant who fails to understand the concept of love. As the original lord of all Fangires, the King uses his position to annihilate the Merman and Franken races, as well as persecute (Jiro, the last Wolfen). When he finds out that his wife Maya has fallen in love with Otoya Kurenai he tries to force her to kill him with the logic that if he kills her for her infidelity it would mean he acually cared for her, so this is much beter. When she does not go through with it, the King offers Jiro, as well as the sole surviving Merman and Franken , a chance to avoid extermination in exchange for killing Otoya. When they choose to escape instead, the King forcibly transforms them into Empathic Weapons. He then kidnaps Otoya and attempts to use his life energy to feed Castle Doran, the King's living castle. When Otoya escapes, the King exposes his lack of any sense of love toward his own wife by using the life of their own infant son as blackmail to prevent her from seeing Otoya again. This disgusts Kivat-bat the 2nd, who is meant to be the King's loyal Transformation Trinket, so much that he offers Otoya a chance to become Kamen Rider Dark Kiva in order to destroy the King.
Ill add to drafts as what he tried to do to maya should be up in his entry.
edited 30th Oct '17 6:16:43 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I'm just joking around, while adding a little note that Adam is being treated as such a serious character nobody is going to make fun of him at all. Still Salem is up in the air, but Adam is almost guaranteed a slot. With that said, if Adam gets killed off this volume, can we start considering him or not yet?
edited 30th Oct '17 5:07:15 AM by TheImmortalAngelNewton
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle@acw : In case your wondering, fangires do have moral agency as they can choose to not feed on humans and control themselves. The main character is a fangire so not an issue either and mio, Maya and taiga all have loved ones and the species does becomes good at the end after the main character becomes the new fangire king. Bat fangire/1986 king is also much worse than any of his kind, so not an issue.
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Yes he did get approved by quite a few votes and no one down voted him. Although that particular trope requires that the person was born to evil and wants to be good so change it, as it is inappropriate for lucious.
edited 30th Oct '17 7:08:41 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I've got RWBY reserved and will handle it. Also, try not to double or triple post, please.
My issue with Annabelle? After the movie, the demon seems no different from Valak. The demons seem completely interchangeable and I can easily imagine both doing the same in one another's place. It hurts who stands out enough, whereas Bathsheba is a human ghost who is arguably nastier than both
edited 30th Oct '17 6:34:40 AM by Lightysnake
Did Lucius get enough votes? Also, I'm not sure Anti-Anti-Christ is the correct pothole there. Maybe Antagonistic Offspring?
Big
to Grevious. As for Dooku he does things in Dark Disciple that vaults him over the edge, but his end is very pathetic and he genuinely believes he's doing a service to the galaxy, and he did not want to abandon Ventress but Palpatine forced his hand.
Thrawn would never qualify barring a MAJOR ass pull. Pryce I could see qualifying through if one can make a convincing case with resources arguement assuming she betrays Thrawn, becomes the "final boss" of Rebels, and proves to be worse.
Also I know he's generally seen as a non-issue here, but I think it's likely, given the happenings of the latest Phasma book, that Armitage Hux could hypothetically qualify by the time his arc is over as there is a sense of him subverting his excuse(in the sense that he got abused by his father, but became his father completly and arranged the death of the latter), so it would depend on the end of the arc if he gets any redeeming qualities or not. And I never thought I would say this, but we might have to keep an eye on Phasma as well given what she does with really limited resources with the new book in mind. Brendol Hux might be another hypothetical qualifier in the future as he already has the crimes, but not the characterization, but it is enough I feel that the moment his characterization is slightly expanded calls for an effortpost.
We might have to get rid of Krennic assuming Pryce or Phasma, or both, end up qualifying by the end of their character arcs.
That said, I'll really get pissed if Kylo Ren somehow qualifies for the trope given how he is presented. Would be a big Ass Pull for the entire franchise because the concept of redemption and balance are integral aspects of the franchise. And frankly, the people that think "SW don't have enough irredeemably evil villains" NEED to be shown the CM list for SW, but enough of this.
edited 30th Oct '17 9:06:47 AM by xie323
Lucius is currently 11
and 0
, with four tropers abstaining. From what I can tell, Hayden seems neck and neck and is nearly tied with up and down votes, but Lucius seems like a clear pass.
edited 30th Oct '17 8:59:38 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.@98441
I'm moreso talking about people that want Kylo Ren to be as evil as possible with no going back. And plus we aren't lacking in "complex" C Ms as well. We have Exar Kun and Darth Bane in legends, as well as Count Vidan and arguably Gallius Rax in the new canon(but then again, I'm looking at this whole "complex CM" issue in the sense of villains that subvert their excuses completely).
edited 30th Oct '17 9:03:08 AM by xie323
@Hamburgertime : I think you got lucious confused with Hayden who multiple people have down voted because I think you actually gave a cautious yes to lucious.
@xie33 : It's less the idea that star wars needs more Cm's so much as the fact that Kylo killed Han which is why people don't want him to get a redemption and qualify for this trope.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

I'd suggest waiting on Valak's case until The Nun.