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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#9601: Mar 6th 2013 at 12:53:42 PM

From YMMV.Ben 10 Omniverse

The fact that it's badly written aside, is there any legit way he compares to Vilgax and Aggregor? I never watched this show.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#9602: Mar 6th 2013 at 12:54:52 PM

Just one planet == not heinous enough.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Paireon I wear no mask. from Wherever you go there you are Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I wear no mask.
#9603: Mar 6th 2013 at 12:59:17 PM

Batman The Brave And The Bold: Agree with Ambar. Rewrite or cut.

Captain Planet: I'll have to check who was up for a vote.

Thrax from Osmosis Jones: There's probably no canon to support this, but since some (if not most) virii and bacteriae are harmless to humans IRL, and given the sentience all microorganisms have in that 'verse seem to have, I've always interpreted it as the "bad" ones choosing to be that way. I'd vote expand and keep.

All Dogs Go To Heaven: Gotta admit, with our current clamping down on kids' show villains, these don't look all that nasty anymore; plus, way too much overexcited hyperbole. Clean up and clarify or cut - and even then probably cut.

Happy Gilmore!Ben Stiller: Zero context. Cut.

My Bloody Valentine 3 D: Never seen either.

Skippy Shorts: Never heard of it until this post.

The Haunting: Never seen.

Felix The Cat: I don't think so, Dave.

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#9604: Mar 6th 2013 at 1:10:00 PM

@9594: No sweat.

@9596: Fixed, thank you.

@9597: I also vote no on the Scammers. They're a group and they're mostly Played for Laughs, except for once at the end when their leader kills Lars. Even then I'd say they fail the heinous standard since other characters on the show do worse actions, for Dead Baby Comedy, and still don't count. For example, Richard Nixon who, in one episode, turned the middle-class into Soylent food products.

Just a heads up, there are some subpages on the Monster.Video Games page that I'm going to submit for the Cut List since they've already been looked over, had their bad examples removed, and qualified examples placed on the sandbox. These would be the Breath of Fire, Jak And Daxter, Mario, and Myst. Did we ever come to a consensus on the Monster.Artix Entertainment examples?

edited 6th Mar '13 2:44:48 PM by OccasionalExister

TriggerLoaded from Canada, eh? (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#9605: Mar 6th 2013 at 1:16:26 PM

We were supposed to lock Complete Monster pages once they were cleaned up, right?

Probably should have done that a few months ago when I cleaned up the Fire Emblem Monster page. I see somebody stuck a bunch of bad examples we got rid of up there. Namely everything under Elibe except Sonia. And I'm still not certain about her or Valter.

I see some new ones that need to be removed. Especially Tearring Saga, as those aren't even a Fire Emblem game.

Thinking about it, I'm leery about Sonia and Valter. I was arguing on their inclusion, but I wasn't confident in their heniousness then, and I'm not certain now. But for now, I'll purge the bad examples that were already decided upon.

Another question: What should be placed on the YMMV pages for (confirmed) Complete Monsters? Can we copy the entry, or should it be paraphrased? Directed to the Complete Monster Page? I'm not sure what.

Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#9606: Mar 6th 2013 at 1:20:13 PM

@9605:

Yes, lock. Delete already-disqualified examples, pointing to this topic.

YMMV tabs should get pointers to the Monster/ page if there is one. No examples due to duplication and shehorning concerns.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AquaRegia Since: Jun, 2011
#9607: Mar 6th 2013 at 1:27:45 PM

I'll tip you over on Sonia and say she should be cut. In terms of on-screen work, Sonia does nothing but kill one dude and order the death of a little girl who she has manipulated into thinking she's her daughter. She has nothing on her master, Nergal, who is not only behind everything she does, but deliberately engineers the deaths of hundreds of Black Fang members in order to steal their life energy as fuel. She's a huge asshole and is unnecessarily sadistic at times, but everything she does is subservient to and eclipsed by her master.

Also don't think Valter does much on-screen as well. He has some creepy, rape-ish dialogue, but not only does it never come to fruition in any way, he effectively does nothing but kill one guy and have his younger brother accost the princess.

edited 6th Mar '13 1:28:16 PM by AquaRegia

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#9608: Mar 6th 2013 at 1:36:26 PM

Absolutely not on Sonia for me. Sonia is sadistic and petty on a level Nergal flatly isn't, and unlike him, is fully sane. Other Morphs are generic (Ephidel) or have genuine redeeming features (Limstella), but Sonia is plain nasty. Not only does she murder her own husband after revealing she was just using him, she manipulates her adopted daughter, orders her death by the man who loves her and then has orders to kill them both should he be unable to do it. When Nino encounters her later, Sonia takes nothing short of gleeful pleasure in trying to murder her and pointing out how she killed her real family.

She's easily the most heinous in the game.

Plus, didn't we approve the entire Fire Emblem page ages ago?

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#9609: Mar 6th 2013 at 1:37:21 PM

Scammers, Played for laughs group, cut

As for Malware, I was originally going to bring him up, he's the first season Big Bad, but he was Taken for Granite, a fate many members of his species came back from, so I decided not to as he could reappear.

Malware destroys 1 planet and tries to destroy another. He kills several members of his species. When Ben was younger, he tore out his favorite Alien Form (which his attachment to had caused a sort of psuedo-psychic infusion, or something, where losing him felt like a piece of himself died). And he threw a bunch of kids at a tanker to distract Ben in the present

Is He played for laughs: Not really, he did have some comedic points early on, which he dropped i.e. planning and trying to kill a kid, bad, getting hit in a non-sequiter, funny. Wouldn't hold it against him.

Freudian Excuse: He's a Galvanic Mechamorph, a member of a living metal species. When the species was born, he was like an afterbirth, a glitchy mentally unstable mech, who's powers worked as an inverse (he absorbed technology instead of combining with it). He goes on a rampage because he believes his creator (who he calls father) Azmuth isn't trying to help cure him, as he is in repeated pain and mentally twisted. Azmuth is trying, but it's a complicated process. Malware steals the device to heal him and Azmuth's assistant and tries to get him to fix him. It backfires as the assistant sees him as deranged and dangerous and tries to kill him. Malware looks more whole, but red instead of Green. He declares himself fixed (I don't know if he is, he still has the errors, but he looks healthier and acts with more malice), and declares himself the perfect being.

At the very end, when he destroys his planet and goes on a rant to Azmuth, still upset that despite his superiority complex he still sees himself as Azmuth's failure and shame, which Azmuth denies. Azmuth says he can't heal his "Pain" which could allude to his condition or insanity.

That is context, whether or not his Freudian Excuse is Justified, I don't think he matches up in heinous standard.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#9610: Mar 6th 2013 at 1:38:09 PM

The Mark Up for the Super Robot Wars page needs adjusting. It should look like this:

Super Robot Wars, especially the OG series, is ripe with Complete Monsters too:

  • Aguilla Setme, the cruel head of the School, a brainwashing academy for Child Soldiers. Setme is responsible for the brainwashing and Mind Rape of countless children into heartless soldiers, and she has no compunction sending them to die as cannon fodder, or to kill civilians. The process is portrayed as a painful and traumatic one as well, with Latooni, one of the "graduates" of the School who is saved having what amounts to PTSD and severe issues. When Arado, one of her "children" manages to escape her, Setme shows no remorse in brainwashing his love interest Seolla and sending her to murder him. When Seolla is saved, Setme has their beloved big sister figure Ouka brainwashed to kill them, Ouka only freeing herself long enough to destroy Setme at the cost of her own life. Setme even says they're not even people to her. Just test subjects to be used and discarded.
  • Archibald Grims, a Psycho for Hire without a cause, his objective is only to enjoy more bloodshed, especially if it's from innocents. He also gleefully forces Elzam to make a Sadistic Choice, whether it's to allow Grims to unleash a deadly nerve gas, killing the entire populace of a colony, or to kill his, Elzam's, own wife to prevent the attack.
  • Lubikka Hakkinen is a brutal, sadistic mercenary who leads attacks on civilian colonies all the while sporting a big Slasher Smile on his face. One of these attacks took the lives of the parents of Tytti Noorbuck, and this wasn't the first atrocity Lubikka had committed. When Tytti exposed him, Lubikka was forced to flee, becoming a mercenary raider who still carried out war crimes, except now he possesses a fixation on making Tytti suffer. He targets her friends and kills her lover Ricardo, all to hurt the one person who escaped him before he plans to kill her as well.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#9611: Mar 6th 2013 at 1:45:02 PM

So after I go through the comics one more time, we can probably lock them this weekend. Actually, if someone wants to, look over then main page and we can lock that now (not done w/ DC or Marvel yet).

AquaRegia Since: Jun, 2011
#9612: Mar 6th 2013 at 1:46:38 PM

Sonia definitely strikes me as one of those really nasty, manipulative types who is absolutely annihilated in terms of heinousness, but is held on a pedestal over the more impersonal mass murderers. Were she more heinous and were her actions further independant of her slavish subservience to Nergal, I would have less of a problem thinking that she stood out, but Nergal was nearly as responsible for Nino's indoctrination as Sonia, and her murder of Brendan comes immediately after he decides to stand up to her. Really, she has nothing in terms of heinousness to Nergal, who I'd argue only does not qualify because he doesn't have solid moral agency. Of course, lack of moral agency does not mean that said character cannot stand out as a pillar of atrocity.

edited 6th Mar '13 1:52:50 PM by AquaRegia

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#9614: Mar 6th 2013 at 1:54:13 PM

He decides to 'stand up' for her because she reveals she manipulated his sons to their death and is trying to murder his beloved adopted daughter, let's get the context here. Actually, she decides to reveal all this to him on a whim and then murders him when he reacts understandably

Nergal is never this unbelievably petty and it's doubtful he has a choice because he's so insane he doesn't even remember why he's doing any of this. Also, Nino wasn't 'indoctrinated.' Nergal decided she'd be a net asset in the future, so he gave her to Sonia to raise. The abuse? All Sonia. The sacrifice of Nino? Sonia. the really sadistic choice she gives Jaffar? Sonia. Sonia did a ton on her own accord

Out of curiosity, why do SRW and Tales need rewrites?

edited 6th Mar '13 2:03:11 PM by Lightysnake

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#9615: Mar 6th 2013 at 2:08:37 PM

The examples are fine, the mark up just needs to be improved.

AquaRegia Since: Jun, 2011
#9616: Mar 6th 2013 at 2:38:17 PM

Your context is omitting certain details and implicitly establishing culpability for Nergal's crimes specifically on Sonia, so let's get this clarified for the peanut gallery: Sonia was responsible for the direction of the Reed brothers, but at Nergal's behest. They ultimately end up getting themselves killed; one of whom is always killed by Limstella, and the other will always outlive Sonia. Brendan's death was always going to be part of Nergal's plan; Sonia just adds a personal total asshole touch to it because Brendan has the misfortune of confronting her in Limstella's company. She actually never brags about having his sons killed off (especially since one is still alive and she may not even know the other one is dead), and never mentions killing Nino; she just talks about how much she hates him and how everything she did was, again, for Nergal's sake.

So, what does Sonia actually do on her own? It's as you said: She's an extraordinarily shitty "parent" and she's a total asshole. For clarification, up until Sonia orders her death, we're talking about a distant parent in terms of what happens on-screen, not the "regularly tortures her daughter" parent. It ultimately doesn't matter given that she still does the worst thing a parent can do, but let's get characterization nuances out of the way here. I guess that's supposed to be not only distinctly comparable to, but even worse than directing countless men to their horrible ends to feed on their life energy, which is what you're establishing when you say she's the most heinous character in the game. She's a horrible creature, but she has absolutely nothing on Nergal.

As with Tenpenny, I'm stopping here and I'll just leave the interpretation to the others. Go ahead and respond if you want, and we'll just see what happens.

EDIT: No wait, I'd like to specifically mention this, since I just realized that her Complete Monster entry does not: Sonia is effectively a homunculus made by Nergal. When I say she is ordered by Nergal to do this or that, I mean she is physically compelled to be subservient to him because that's the reason she exists. She also has emotions and a personality (an extremely nasty one, no less); she has even deluded herself into thinking that she's human, but she is still programmed to effectively worship Nergal like a god and perform his every command. Part of my argument is that her subservience makes her distinctly inferior to Nergal, but one might also construe those actions as being part of who she is, because she was made to serve Nergal. However, because she has emotions, a personality and some functional degree of moral agency, she is capable of doing nasty things independent of Nergal's commands. She can also interpret what she does as wrong, and is perfectly aware that she her acts are evil and simply does not care, hence Lightysnake's argument. I simply don't think that what she does is heinous enough on its own, but take this as you will.

edited 6th Mar '13 3:13:01 PM by AquaRegia

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#9617: Mar 6th 2013 at 2:51:01 PM

Sonia is far from 'distant.' She's blatantly neglectful at best abusive at worst and sending Jaffar to murder Nino was her own plan. She's also the one who handles a lot of the Quintessence harvesting. Nergal operates on a large scale, Sonia is the personal sort

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#9618: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:27:30 PM

Can we add Queen Chrysalis from the IDW comic book series? From what I can gather, she's much more brutal and nightmarish than she was in the show. For one, we are shown how she and the other changelings eat love. They demonstrate this by turning a village full of cat's home into a Sugar Apocalypse. Her plan, this time around involves getting revenge on Twilight for foiling her plan to take over Equestria. She plans to drain Twilight of her powers, and then kill her. She also kidnaps the Cutie Mark Crusaders, and implies that she would consume them after they outlived their usefulness. She also is implied to kill a cat in front of them as well, since a Gory Discretion Shot is shown with the word thump colored white with a black background. Though I want to know if she just acts like this because the comic is Darker and Edgier than the show. What do you guys think?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#9619: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:28:18 PM

No, because we don't know the work.

You should never use acronyms when referring to a work.

eta: Apart from that, if you can show me that she doesn't have altruistic actions, she would get my approval.

edited 6th Mar '13 3:29:26 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#9620: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:31:53 PM

Sonia is effectively a homunculus made by Nergal. When I say she is ordered by Nergal to do this or that, I mean she is physically compelled to be subservient to him because that's the reason she exists.
No moral agency? Cut.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#9621: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:35:17 PM

That's literally completely untrue. Morphs are artificial humans, but they have agency if they want it.

Sonia does a ton he never orders and shows sadistic glee in it. Their personalities are all them. While he can compel them, he never once does so with Sonia or Ephidel. He makes others who are limited in brainpower or personality, but Sonia is essentially a full human being. She even deludes herself into believing she is human

edited 6th Mar '13 3:36:35 PM by Lightysnake

AquaRegia Since: Jun, 2011
#9622: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:35:32 PM

However, because she has emotions, a personality and some functional degree of moral agency, she is capable of doing nasty things independent of Nergal's commands. She can also interpret what she does as wrong, and is perfectly aware that she her acts are evil and simply does not care, hence Lightysnake's argument.

When I say that, I mean she is inherently devoted to slavishly serving Nergal and anything he commands of her happens. It doesn't mean she can't do horrible things of her own accord; it's not an issue of "she has no moral agency", it's an issue of "she is made and predisposed to do everything that Nergal commands, so whether or not she is a Complete Monster hinges on if what she does on her own accord is heinous enough to be noteworthy".

edited 6th Mar '13 3:37:28 PM by AquaRegia

DrPsyche Avatar by Leafsnake from Hawaii Since: May, 2012
Avatar by Leafsnake
#9623: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:35:44 PM

[up][up][up][up] Acronyms? Do you mean IDW, It means idea + Design Works, but it's the name of the publishing company, like DC Comics, so it's not necessary.

edited 6th Mar '13 3:36:27 PM by DrPsyche

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#9624: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:37:17 PM

No, I want to know which work Austin DR wants to add an example about.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TriggerLoaded from Canada, eh? (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#9625: Mar 6th 2013 at 3:37:48 PM

As mentioned, I don't believe Sonia is forced to be subservient. Several of the morphs are. (Such as one only capable of saying one phrase) but honestly I don't recall anything directly stating that they must obey Nergal. Even if they did, Sonia certainly takes a considerable amount of glee in what she does.

Of course, Since she only has a few on-screen murders and attempted murders to her name, and is dicking around everyone else, I'm leaning towards cutting her anyways. Aside from trying to kill Nino, she doesn't outright torture her, she's just incredibly neglectful, to the point where Nino is willing (Though she backs out later) to murder somebody simply for a hug.

I'm leaning towards Cut.

Ditto with Valter. Valter has one kill to his name, and a lot of 'toying' with Eirika and Ephraim, but otherwise doesn't actually accomplish a lot.

Don't take life too seriously. It's only a temporary situation.

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