During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I still feel like maybe his established characterization should qualify him. Even in Hatred you can arbitrarily elect to not kill some people.
Beyond that, the description given is his canonical characterization, so I'm not 100% sure that the actions of a player would disqualify him, since by that same logic somebody could RP as Lem falling into depravity.
edited 3rd Oct '17 7:03:49 PM by Voyd211
Since a full rewrite is not needed I propose merely an edit to Zakhaev's write up.
" When his son commits suicide to avoid giving him up, Zakhaev fires two nuclear missiles at the U.S when the U.S and British refuse to comply with his demand to leave Russia"
Points out that he fired nukes rather than conventional missiles which is a pretty big error in a CM writeup.
edited 3rd Oct '17 7:24:01 PM by hopeshalllive
I'll keep looking (I swear I'll get PF a Monster subpage if it's the last thing I do on this site), but having no real knowledge of the Hell's Vengeance adventure itself, I went purely with Urgraz's backstory as his qualifications.
Furthermore, I'm kinda curious if there are any examples in the novels, the comics, the radio dramas, or the Pathfinder's Journal. I'm half-tempted to reread the journal for Serpent's Skull, but I don't think that antagonist qualifies. Even if he is willing to murder a young demigod in front of his parent, the firefly god that had been plaguing the area.
edited 3rd Oct '17 7:34:35 PM by Voyd211
That's just it; the actions in the Adventure Path itself are pretty much fixed, regardless of who the P Cs are. Unless the players go WAAAY off the rails, the end result will be the same whether Urgraz is in the party or not.
Similarly, none of the adventure paths assume that you're actually playing as the pregenerated characters; they exist in canon and have defined backstories, but in the actual books they're never mentioned.
That's why I looked solely at Urgraz's backstory; they're his only actions that are actually canonical.
Uh... oops? I didn't realize that. I am trying to get sincere examples nominated, though; I've skipped over a bunch of possible characters in my search, simply because they don't measure up.
Karzoug? Nope. Adivion? Overshadowed by Tar-Baphon and Socorro. Daralathyxyl? More a GDV than anything. Zon-Kuthon? Explicitly not himself. Rovagug? Made of Evil. Most fiends? Also Made of Evil, though I would possibly make exceptions for fiends that go above and beyond the norm for their race. Nualia? Heeeeeeell no. Alain? Well, he is a gargantuan prick, but he's explicitly not evil, but Lawful Neutral. Even the other Hell's Vengeance characters' backstories don't compare to Urgraz.
edited 3rd Oct '17 7:44:02 PM by Voyd211
I still believe that whatever a player does with Urgraz shouldn't be considered as it's not really canon, but it seems I'm alone in this matter.
I am specifically trying to find a character who qualifies without being a national threat like Kazavon and Socorro, or a global one like Szuriel and Tar-Baphon. Urgraz seemed to fit the bill; he's an adventurer, not a major player in any of the thousands of plots on Golarion, but he's still a backstabbing scumbag who murdered everyone that ever knew him.
Aye, aye, and aye — this and your previous proposals make me inclined to think this is an effort to force in Square Peg Round Trope. Nay to every PF candidate until we can have a verified opinion that all information is actually accurate (and you still need to work on the heinous standard, Voyd. Please review this
, thoroughly).
edited 3rd Oct '17 8:09:55 PM by Scraggle
Alright. I was trying my best to get as much accurate info as I could; I consulted several sources on Tar-Baphon (they mostly reiterated the same info), the only source for Socorro (who, as mentioned in his writeup, only has his crimes detailed in one book), and Urgraz's official character bio.
I should probably be happy that I've provided three characters. I'll probably pop in if I examine something else, but I've probably exhausted my capacity for meaningful contributions to this thread ^^;
(...aaaaand of course another character immediately jumps into my head. Get down, Wizzro, you're just a pawn of the redeemable Cia.)
...actually, it seems Wizzro hasn't been discussed. I... highly doubt he qualifies, considering that Ganondorf and Cia are also in the game.
edited 3rd Oct '17 8:56:02 PM by Voyd211
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i read his page he does not seem that bad and he has to compete with zant and yuga who do count in there home games and cia and ganondorf who try to destroy hyrale. He just sounds like a goon nothing else.
Anyone here familiar with the show Galidor from 2002? I was like the only person in my school who liked it. I'm thinking of rewatching it, but I wanted to know if anyone here has seen it because I want to see if the Big Bad of that show, named Gorm, qualifies as a complete monster. I actually did look through a search and as far as I can see, no one has ever mentioned him. So if anyone who has seen that show is considering bringing him up, or he has been brought up and voted down and I didn't see it, let me know.
"Sam Manson is a terrible character."

edited 3rd Oct '17 6:54:56 PM by ThePest179