During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@G-Editor: I dunno who was originally going to do Destiny 2, but speaking personally I found Dominus Ghaul to be a rather unexpectedly nasty piece of work. I'm not going to EP him anytime soon for time reasons, but if anyone else wants to, go ahead.
Messenger from another dimension.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Urado
edited 29th Sep '17 5:49:56 PM by emperors
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@nrjxll: You mean the giant deformed marshmallow? 
Kaneyuki "Urado" Miyama.
I've been playing through all the recently added content of Path of Exile to see about one more candidate who looks like a no go at this point. I'll be finishing up my write ups on Dominus and Malachai later tonight probably.
Anyways, that game got me back into isometric actions rpgs and got me playing Diablo 3 again. Which brings me to a question. What was the reason for cutting Maghda again? She wholesale slaughters two large settlements and brutally tortures Leah, Cain, and Tyrael. She seems pretty comparable to Adria and certainly seems as bad if not worse than Lazarus.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Do her deeds compare to everything done by the Prime Evils?
edited 29th Sep '17 3:48:34 PM by dragonfire5000
She's human like Adria Aria and Lazarus, so she can't really be compared to the Prime Evils. There's also the massive torture chambers she had her cult set up underground that's obviously been used on a lot of people considering all the blood and undead that attack.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Reason I ask is because (and forgive me if I get things wrong since I'm not a Diablo player) the Prime Evils, being the main antagonists, set the heinous standard for the series.
I mean, lots of villains from Dragon Ball don't count as Complete Monsters because the heinous standard for that franchise is incredibly high. By that rule, if Mahgda's atrocities don't stack up compared to the Prime Evils, then I don't really see her counting either.
Heck, even without the Prime Evils, we had Malthael trying to wipe out all of humanity, which seems to be a cut above what Mahgda does. Sure, he had what he felt were good intentions, but Mahgda's actions seem kind of small potatoes compared to his.
edited 29th Sep '17 4:07:13 PM by dragonfire5000
Alright, it's been three weeks since the new version of IT. What's the evaluation of Bill Skarsgard's Pennywise?
We already voted on him
Maghda is human while the Prime Evils are demon lords and Malthael is an archangel. Maghda has to be compared to currently listed humans like Adria and Lazarus. She seems comparable to the former and arguably worse than the latter.
Dragon Ball is a special case in regards to heinous standards.
edited 29th Sep '17 4:35:34 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
He's an unanimous keeper actually which is not surprising since IT's 2017 version are way more sadistic and far worse than the original. And like I said, Bill Skarsgard could make a better Joker than Jared Leto's SS though
EDIT: Also, Is Adria one of the examples of a CM that loses their redeeming quality as the story went on like Griffith?
edited 29th Sep '17 4:40:12 PM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
You can always EP her and list her action if you believe she qualifies.
Speaking of which I wonder if any of the Lesser Evils or even the Prime Evil, Baal Lord of Destruction, qualifies
Also its been over a week since I EP and Wrote up Ivan Reynolds and the general consensus believes he qualifies yet I don't see him anywhere on the Monster Film P to Z page. Why is that?
edited 29th Sep '17 4:55:59 PM by G-Editor
Superboy, I'd like to please ask you to use the search function/go back through the last pages of the thread before asking questions in such an impatient manner. I find it hard that you would have missed that considering votes went on for like five pages.
Adria is a case that never actually had redeeming features and only pretended she did
I decided to reserve Versus 2, whenever it gets out of Development Hell.
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Urado.
Now, I've got an inquiry here....forgive me if it's been brought up before, but the search function yielded no results.
I have recently watched the AWESOME film Dredd, which currently has a CM in Madeline "Ma-Ma" Madrigal, who EASILY counts in said film.
My...question is that, in the prequel comic Dredd: Top of the World Ma-Ma, which has apparently been stated to be in-canon with the film, Ma-Ma's time as a hooker is more clearly shown, and we learn that she had a boyfriend named Eric who she seemed to genuinely care for. Her whole "biting off her pimp's penis" mentioned in the film gets more detail here, as we see that she only did so after said pimp tortured Eric to death.
So, again, forgive me if this has been brought up before, but does anyone have a counterargument to this? The "issue" is Ma-Ma's descent into madness and pure evil being sparked by her boyfriend's brutal death. I do NOT want to have to cut her for something like a prequel comic, so any links to a resounding counterargument for this would be appreciated.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
G-Editor: Blame Septimus.
P.S. I'll possibly be sending both you and FW a PM tomorrow, after I check some things; I gave it some thought, and we may need to reevaluate John Curtis in terms of heinousness.
Shit...if it's in canon, she may have to be cut.
edited 29th Sep '17 5:39:20 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Messenger from another dimension.
Just watched an Italian movie Esther and the King based on the Book of Esther that I haven't read in a long time but based on what I read on the writeup, Haman might have new crimes in this movie.
Who is Haman and what does he do?
He is the king's advisor and in the beginning when the king fo Persia is at war, Haman has the man hanged to show people an example of what happens to people who don't pay taxes. Later, he is shown having an affair with king's wife Vashti. After king Ahasureus finds out that Vashti had an affair with someone, he has her banished. Haman in secret has his general (who might actually also require an EP) assassinate her. After her death, Haman has all the Jewish virgins abducted as a gift for the king. One of them would become his queen. When the titular Esther comes to king's attention, Haman is disappointed in king picking up a Jew. Later in the movie, Haman tells the king to exterminate all the Jewish people since they don't follow the Persian religion and make the Persian religion become the law. Esther (whom the king loves) convinces the king otherwise but Haman manages to frame a Jew (who was king's other advisor) for working with enemies, the king agrees to slaughter all the Jews but Esther again manages to convince to find actual proof. That leads to the king going to Persepolis and than Haman orders his general to have the king assassinated. The king finds out later and Haman is executed.
Heinous?
Easy pass. His general who might require a separate EP has all the Jewish villages flogged after being beaten by the Jew while kidnapping the virgins. But Haman ultimately is in charge, and I think wanting to slaughter all the Jews outheinousses his general.
Mitigating Qualities?
Hell no! He has a romance with king's first wife but this is all for power and he later has her assassinated.
Verdict?
Easy keep, unless he has those crimes in the Bible too which will not require a separate entry.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Lazarus from the first game is a CM? Didn't Mephisto corrupt him, like the rest of the Zakarum?
Also to Urado.
Haman
ACW: I don’t understand “Blame Septimus.”
I think he means the moderators just haven't gotten around to submitting Reynolds' writeup yet. Be patient.
@Ravok: Hmm... Haven't seen that come up and a search turns up nothing I admit, that's something of a toughie. I'd say she's far beyond the realm of justification, but an excuse doesn't need to totally justify the villain's actions so much as explain them. Unfortunately, I think that might be the case here. Unless someone can provide a counterargument, I say cut.
edited 29th Sep '17 6:07:28 PM by Scraggle
Haman
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Ma-Ma
Cutting Ma Ma? Ha ha ha... no. Her past, while tragic, does not, in any shape or form, act as a redeeming quality. Her horrifying brutality far outweighs any sort of valid excuse she may have, and if memory serves I don't remember her ever bringing her boyfriend up in the movie proper. So as far as I'm concerned? Unless I screwed up and she actually does mention in him the movie (It's been years since I've seen it)? She's going nowhere.
Yea to Udaro and Abdiel. Thanks for cutting the Coldsteel entry, G.
And yeah, to follow up on Reyn, if anyone wants to PM me about Made in Abyss, go right ahead. I'll be handling discussion.