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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#95426: Sep 25th 2017 at 11:39:23 PM

Unsurprised that the thread blew up again at this. I think my thoughts on the matter align with FW... now, for an example? Looking into Schaden's fic of origin, I don't see a reimagining of any sort. I see a needlessly dark villain placed in the regular setting.

Yea to Hatch. Yanked an unapproved example from Octopath Traveler yet again, by the way. Left a note this time.

edited 26th Sep '17 12:07:28 AM by Scraggle

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#95427: Sep 26th 2017 at 12:11:37 AM

I have another candidate: George Wexley from Murder in The Clouds:

Who is he and what does he do?

George Wexxley is The Heavy of the film. He works for Big Bad Taggart.

Taggart's group is trying to steal a cylinder containing a newly invented explosive that is going to be delivered to Washington DC. The cylinder is being flown on a plane, so Taggart has three men beat up and knock out Trans-America Air Lines pilot "Three Star" Bob Halsey in a bar. Halsey was going to be the pilot for the delivery, so with him recovering in the hospital, Taggart is able to get Wexley, who is an inside man taking part in the delivery, to offer to take Halsey's role. The others involve in the delivery agree. Wexley uses this opportunity to knock out the co pilots and passengers and plant a time bomb before parachuting out of the plane.

After the plane crashes and kills everyone, Taggart's men are able to go to the crash site and steal the cylinder to take back to their hideout. They are unable to simply put it in a car and drive out though, since there are now people stopping viehicles to check for the cylinder. Judy Wagner, Halsey's girlfriend and the sister of one of the co pilots named Tom, tries to drive to the crash site. She is stopped and redirected by many agents and ends up stopping at Taggart's hideout. When she arrives, he and Wexley create a lie that Tom survived the crash an was commissioned to Mexico to look for fake agents involved I the crash. They tell her this so that she will go to Mexico looking for him. They plan to hide the cylinder in her trunk. Due to her connections with the people involved in the delivery, she will not be stopped since they trust her. Once she gets to Mexico, Taggart and his men can steal the cylinder back out of the trunk when they themselves get there, and they will be free with it.

A radio plays a broadcast saying that Tom was found dead. Judy is upstairs when this happens and hears it but pretends not to. She paints three stars on the roof of the house as a signal. The next day, when a recovered Halsey and his friend Wings see the house, they land nearby, and Halsey goes in and finds Judy. He manages to get her out as Wexley shoots at them to try and kill them. Wings was told to leave for help if he heard gunshots, so he does that. Taggart and Wexley capture Judy and Halsey, and Wexley decides to fly the cylinder out on a fighter plane and take Judy along as a hostage. Halsey manages to escape, and Wings returns with help. Taggart and his men are arrested, and wings and Halsey take off in another small plane to rescue Judy and stop Wexley. After Wexley shoots down a government aircraft in a dogfight between biplanes, Bob manages to force him to land through flying tactics. On the ground, Wexley tries to shoot Halsey and Wings as they come down in their plane, but fails and is knocked out. Both Judy and the explosive are recovered.

Heinousness?

Wexley blows up a plane, tries to shoot Judy and Halsey, shoots down a government aircraft, and tries to shoot Wings and Halsey. That's one act of mass murder, one act of double murder (the aircraft was small only two people in it, pilot and gunner), and three attempted murders (Wings, Judy, and Halsey).

Taggart is the one who told him to down the plane, but Wexley is still the one who did it. Plus, only Wexley shot down the other aircraft and tried to kill Judy, Halsey, and Wings (Taggart kept Judy and Halsey alive in the end, having Wexley use Judy as a hostage, while simply tying up Halsey).

Redeeming features?

He acts very nice toward judy at first, telling her Tom is alive and that she will see him soon, but it's all an act.

jjj
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#95428: Sep 26th 2017 at 12:34:07 AM

[tup] Hatch

As for Wexley... I dunno. It's not a lot, but the film is from 1934. What was the heinous standard for thrillers of that era.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#95429: Sep 26th 2017 at 3:16:02 AM

I second [up]

"violent anal rape in a Bugs Bunny fic"

There's something I never thought I'd read [lol]

edited 26th Sep '17 3:16:20 AM by ACW

bobg Since: Nov, 2012
#95430: Sep 26th 2017 at 3:40:44 AM

Well, three attempted murders along with killing everyone on the plane and shooting down another plane and killing two more people should at least be enough to qualify in a vacuum in my opinion. He is a mass murderer. The 1930s I think had less gritty stuff. It was a simpler time after all. I do think he stands out by committing so much murder in a time like that, but I will just have to see how others feel.

jjj
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#95431: Sep 26th 2017 at 4:40:08 AM

[tup] to Dr. Charles James Hatch (That's a young adult series!) and George Wexley.

LordXavius Doesn't even like this username from many fandoms Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Doesn't even like this username
#95432: Sep 26th 2017 at 5:12:56 AM

A [tup] to Hatch. I'll give Murder in the Clouds a watch and vote on Wexley afterwards.

Now, for my take on the current iteration of the seemingly eternal MLP fan fic debate. I am, like most people here, against fics with pointless grimdark and/or inexplicable Ron the Death Eater-ification, but I still feel there is a place for examples from stories that are darker than what the show's rating would allow if they fit the tone. Remember that Friendship Is Magic itself has had things like a War Is Hell alternate timeline featuring an army of mind-controlled slave soldiers and heavily implied maiming, another timeline where Equestria had been turned into a barren wasteland, demonic spirits that feed on hate, a disease that slowly turns infected beings into trees, and likely other things I'm forgetting in addition to the standard Evil Overlord stuff (and that's not even mentioning how messed up the only-vaguely-canon-but-still-official IDW comics can get). So, while I do think there should be a line I still think there's ample opportunity for fan fic Monsters from the MLP-verse. I apologize for making a perhaps overly long speech, but I wanted to make my point clear.

EDIT: And because it's been brought up before in this thread, no, not every canon villain is redeemed, and those that are were usually fallen/corrupted heroes to begin with (Discord is an exception, but he was always more about the chaos than the evil). Sombra even got disintegrated, G1-style.

edited 26th Sep '17 5:17:43 AM by LordXavius

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#95433: Sep 26th 2017 at 5:23:14 AM

In regards to the double standard we have, I wouldn't lose any sleep if we ever had to cut the There Will Be Brawl and Breakfast of the Gods examples if it was about setting an example for Pony fan-fiction. That's not going to happen, so I don't need reminding from anyone it won't.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#95434: Sep 26th 2017 at 5:52:33 AM

As for Wexley... I dunno. It's not a lot, but the film is from 1934. What was the heinous standard for thrillers of that era.

I was always under the impression it would actually be higher than for similar movies a decade or so later, because of the Hays Code - though I don't remember exactly when that was introduced.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#95435: Sep 26th 2017 at 6:10:45 AM

Definite [tup] for Dr. Charles James Hatch.

I'm giving a [tdown] for George Wexley. I do see how blowing up a plane is a horrible thing to do and all, but he was doing so on orders of Taggart, so I feel like Taggart is more responsible there. He killed two people in a government aircraft, but that was during a dogfight basically. And him trying to kill three people is basic standard villainy. Unless Wexley is one of those goons who takes immense pleasure in all the destruction he causes, I'm not feeling it. If he kidnapped Judy and tried to deliver the bomb purely out of spite, and against Taggart's orders, I might reconsider my vote.

But right now? No. He comes off as being a tiny bit worse than your average Dragon.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#95436: Sep 26th 2017 at 6:45:25 AM

I recently got old D&D arcade games. They are kind of RP Gs so it's possible that main villains qualify. I will give them a try. If anyone played them, PM me.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
zcooper95 Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#95437: Sep 26th 2017 at 7:30:43 AM

Ok so I would like to talk about Anton Chirgurh's writeup. From what I have gathered, he does count in both the book and the film, but his film version was only listed because he committed more crimes. SO maybe we could remove his writeup from the film section and add it under literature. For the crimes he committed in the film (haven't read the whole book) we add in brackets, "in the film version he does this....etc". Like how we did with Napolean's page from Animal Farm. How does that sound?

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#95438: Sep 26th 2017 at 9:47:18 AM

Alright, something else on the fanfiction thing which I hope doesn't come off as too confrontational: We don't want to be dicks about fanfiction. We want to encourage creativity, even in fanfiction - hell maybe even especially in fanfiction to try to foster creative growth.

But more importantly we want to encourage good fanfiction. Canon Defilement is usually thrown out because why the hell would you make Dumbledore a murdering rapist?

Now, for MLP? If you're villain is Game Of Thrones level bad, that probably won't cut it. If they're Harry Potter bad, though? I think that's fair game. And I feel our rules on fanfics should be similar to our Creepypasta rules.

My point is, I don't have the perfect answers, but we should remember to treat fanfiction with respect as we discuss it, especially since we seem ready to purge a bunch of tasteless examples.

I think many of us feel the same but regardless I still felt it should be spelled out just to be sure my own views on the matter are clear.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#95439: Sep 26th 2017 at 10:03:40 AM

@bobg: What kind of airplane did he blow up?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#95440: Sep 26th 2017 at 10:26:45 AM

I agree with that sentiment. There are some genuniely good stories out there that are deliberately ignored just because of some bad ones. Really anything can be bad; films, games, cartoons, etc. but we still use the same criteria then determing them, so why not with fanfics?

edited 26th Sep '17 10:27:16 AM by AustinDR

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#95442: Sep 26th 2017 at 10:43:04 AM

From YMMV.Fuuka:

Complete Monster: As of Chapter 167, Zeta Records CEO Tomoko Ikoma. Ever since that incident involving Yuu taking Aoi away from the band she was handling, she really could not let go of her grudge against Blue Wells. So much that she has hindered their comeback gig AND struck down their video in the guise of an indirect coyright infringement complaint (Think DMCA).

So....cut?

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#95443: Sep 26th 2017 at 10:48:38 AM

[up][tup] to cutting. Nothing there really screams "Complete Monster." Sounds more like "petty grudge" to me.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#95444: Sep 26th 2017 at 11:12:52 AM

Like, I get cutting, say, anything to do with that "Cupcakes" MLP fanfic because that's just nonsense "oh, Pinky Pie is a psycho because she's the one least likely to be evil. That's the joke." but if the story has a point to the whole thing, then that should make us reconsider.

Do note I haven't read Cupcakes, so it might be better than I give it credit for.

Agony In Pink is just Torture Porn which is JUST Torture Porn and is literally pornographic. I hope no one ever actually proposes something from it.

Also, No Country For Old Men: I don't know if I said this before, but the book came first so we should have the book version listed as well. That's my view on Chigur.

[up][up] That's so far below the baseline I feel it should be a new Running Gag on the thread.

EDIT: [down] My God, What Have I Done?? Seriously, don't do it. It's pointless trash and I brought it up as an example of what we don't want.

Sorry if I've crossed a line by just bringing it up.

I must've read that bullshit five years ago.

Because of this site.

TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life.

edited 26th Sep '17 11:29:25 AM by PolarPhantom

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#95445: Sep 26th 2017 at 11:23:12 AM

Damn, after finding the summary, I'm kinda curious about Agony in Pink now.

[down] Oh, don't worry, I don't plan on actually proposing anyone from it.

edited 26th Sep '17 11:33:19 AM by ACW

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#95446: Sep 26th 2017 at 11:24:24 AM

ACW, look it up on your own time, but just...don't? Ok? Don't. Learn to exercise discretion

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#95447: Sep 26th 2017 at 11:27:05 AM

I'm going to take a break from both this thread and the wiki. I think I'm also going to remove my reservation of Channel Zero and the Exorcist. I might still do the EP's if I'm in the mood but everyone is free to do it if I don't.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#95449: Sep 26th 2017 at 11:48:39 AM

[up] That's...not how it works. We need an effortpost (and I'm ESPECIALLY wary on Bear Thief, considering the franchise's jacked-up heinous standard).

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#95450: Sep 26th 2017 at 11:49:06 AM

No, we won't do anything if you ask like that.

Be prepared to explain why they should be put up


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