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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#95176: Sep 22nd 2017 at 11:48:56 AM

Sigh.

Okay.

Out of context, it's impossible to answer these questions.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#95177: Sep 22nd 2017 at 12:16:16 PM

What Lighty said. Name the work. Otherwise, it's impossible to know. It could be redeeming, or it could just be a whim.

ChaoticQueen Since: Mar, 2011
#95178: Sep 22nd 2017 at 12:21:46 PM

All right then, big spoilers incoming.

Life is Strange is a game where the protagonist, Max, discovers she has the powet to rewind time. She uses these powers to save her friend Chloe from being shot in the gut. Chloe is looking for her friend Rachel, and Max helps her. Strange events happen as a consequence of Max's actions. Long story short, the universe is pissed at Max for saving Chloe's life, and now is doing whatever it can to kill her, even it means destroying the entire town.

Towards the end, we discover that Max's teacher, Mark Jefferson, is a serial killer who loves bringing up girls' spirits and then crushing them like a bug before killing them. He murdered Chloe and his lackey Nathan. He can potentially murder Victoria and drive Kate to suicide depending on player choice. A collection of files shows he's had several other victims as well. Normally, I wouldn't argue against him being a CM, but one tiny thing that stands out to me is that when Max asks for a last request, he grants it with no strings attached. She can ask for water, music, a picture, or to turn off the lights. Either way, he doesn't benefit from it.

On a side note, he seems to honestly regret the death of Rachel (Nathan did it) and he apologizes for calling Max a cunt.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#95179: Sep 22nd 2017 at 12:24:50 PM

[up]That was discussed when Max was first proposed, and it was deemed not to be redeeming, as overall it just was him prolonging her up coming death.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#95180: Sep 22nd 2017 at 12:30:17 PM

[up][up] Chaotic Queen if there's a character who you want to appeal, check the search bar because that may of been brought up before. Pretty sure you've used this site for a while now too.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#95181: Sep 22nd 2017 at 12:31:11 PM

We discussed all this already. we're not even going to entertain him not counting at this point.

If nobody minds, I do need more votes on my EP last page

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#95183: Sep 22nd 2017 at 12:47:26 PM

[tup] Crom

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#95185: Sep 22nd 2017 at 1:23:22 PM

What's the work?

The King of Fighters ... the film. Unfortunately not an exception of Video Game Movies Suck. Anyway

In this film, the King of Fighters is a tournament held in an alternate dimension. When contestants are issued challenges, they enter the tournament via a special bluetooth headset. After Rugal steals the artifacts of the three clan and takes over the tournament, the heroes recrutes Kyo Kusanagi who can wield the only sword able to kill the bad guy.

Who is he?

The Big Bad Rugal Bernstein is a Blood Knight who seeks the power of Orochi a mythical beast sealed in the other world who grants limitless powers but consume the user with murderous rage.

What has he done?

Years before the beginning, Rugal attacked Saisyu Kusanagi, Chizuru Kagura and Iori Yagami to get the Orochi. Iori repelled Rugal by using the orochi but blinded by the beast's influence, Iori attacked Saisyu leaving the old man in a catatonic state for the rest of his life.

In present, Rugal breaks into a museum where the three mystical artefacts required to get Orochi are exposed: The Kagura Mirror, the Yagami Necklace and the Kusanagi Sword. He kills a few security guards and stabs Chizuru leaving her crippled for the rest of the movie. It turns out that the sword is a fake one but he manages to escape to the tournament dimension through the mirror.

There he takes over the Tournament and becomes a Reality Warper. He lures Mature and her girlfriend Vice into the dimension, beats them both then brainwashes them with a Forceful Kiss. He then lures many contestants into the game and kill them all.

He also brings Iori, has him fights Mature and Vice and goads him into accepting Orochi. Later in the film, he reveals his new plan: merge the tournament dimension with the real world so that the Tournament becomes the only reality.

He finally drags the heroes in his world and gleefully turns Kyo Kusanagi against the brainwashed Iori by revealing what Iori did to Kyo's father. He also mortally wounds Chizuru.

Blah blah blah Final Battle Kyo throws the Kusanagi Sword at Rugal and the day is saved.

Mitaging Factors

No Freudian Excuse no redeeming quality blah blah blah

The serial killing of the fighters happens offscreen but it escapes Offscreen Villainy because a CIA agent sows the pictures of the victims. The villain is a bit over the top: he wears weird clothes, defeats the girls by playing Hockey and throws fireballs at Kyo with a baseball bat but otherwise he's played seriously (even though taking him seriously is challenging). Heiniousness Big Bad and only villain besides the brainwashed lesbians, sets it.

Verdict

Weak yes

edited 22nd Sep '17 2:08:04 PM by Silverblade2

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#95186: Sep 22nd 2017 at 1:29:48 PM

Too generic in villainy. I vote cut.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#95187: Sep 22nd 2017 at 1:50:02 PM

I was actually thinking of that film the other day.

Weak [tup] for shitty Rugal.

ChaoticQueen Since: Mar, 2011
#95188: Sep 22nd 2017 at 1:54:21 PM

Sorry. I mainly just use the search function if I can't remember the exact name of a trope or work. I've never used it to search the forums.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#95189: Sep 22nd 2017 at 1:56:54 PM

Weak [tup] Rugal. Seems to escape Offscreen Villainy

edited 22nd Sep '17 1:58:44 PM by ReynTime250

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#95190: Sep 22nd 2017 at 1:57:11 PM

Strong [tup] for Crom. Weak [tup] for Rugal.

edited 22nd Sep '17 1:57:33 PM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#95191: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:01:01 PM

Guys, I'm not seeing it...he kills a few people, brainwashes a few (and 'rape subtext' has to be my least favorite argument on this) and wants to...merge the worlds?

What about this goes beyond generic bad guy stuff?

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#95192: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:06:30 PM

What would merging the worlds entail?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#95193: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:07:05 PM

I don't even get these "weak" votes you and others over the years have given for unconvincing proposals. If you admit publicly that you think they don't do that much in your eyes, why are they worth an upvote?

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#95194: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:09:56 PM

I think the "weak" justification is that we think a villain sucks, but barely does enough.

Also, we won't lose sleep if they're rejected, but cannot in good conscience not support them.

Anyway, I'll dig a little more into shitty Rugal.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#95195: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:10:10 PM

Going through more unapproved examples. Here's what I cut:

Designated Survivor:

  • Lloyd's primary operative, Nestor Lozano, is the perpetrator of the attempt on Kirkman's life, and also kills Jason Atwood, abducts Agent Hannah Wells, and leaves a bomb at the Hoover Building (the headquarters of the FBI) that would have taken the whole thing out if not for Hannah’s interference. Before he is killed by Agent Wells, Lozano is able to break into the Pentagon and steal a large amount of classified information to enable Lloyd to escape and continue to menace the country.

Mars Attacks!:

  • Complete Monsters: Somewhat Played for Laughs. The Martians are evil, unimaginable bastards and they enjoy that fact. They enact an ultimately pointless, unwarranted, genocidal invasion to lifeforms that did absolutely nothing to intentionally provoke them simply because..."it amused them". Sure, humans are virtually flawed and incomprehensibly nasty, but even they continued to be welcoming and diplomatic to the Martians after multiple attacks

I cut some wicks from mother! (2017) (not posting here due to spoilers).

Ogre Battle:

  • Complete Monster: Death Master Nybbas Obderhode is a completely fucked up person. When his son Debordes was executed by Barbatos for rebelling, Nybbas made his corpse a guinea pig for his necromancy research, turning him into a walking corpse. While he serves Barbatos, he couldn't care less on who wins just so long he can continue his research about necromancy, with no regards of souls of the dead or living. No wonder his priestly daughter Orias hate him so much... And if you think he's not THAT bad... then his Moral Event Horizon would be him zombifying of Guildus in Neutral route. And if you go to the other route, he zombifies Leonard and Zaebos. The Chaotic route of the PSP remake ramps this Up To Eleven with his treatment to his daughter Cressida. Of most Tactics Ogre villains... Nybbas tops in the 'evil' department.
    • Cardinal Barbatos orders the ethnic cleansing of Walsta/Walister and institutes concentration camps such as Baramus / forced slave labor camps such as Balmamusa If that wasn't really the cinch of it, Jenounes' backstory also cements him as one. He ordered the massacre of Oxyones' village on Jenounes' squadron on the claim that they were cultists, but in truth they just stored anti-Barbatos movement and overall innocent. And then there's the fact that he executed Debordes just because he's part of anti-Barbatos movement, enabling Nybbas to do his way with him. And he's still lightweight compared to Nybbas...

From a Hate Sink entry for Prehistoric Park: Extinction World:

  • James, however, takes the cake: he's a cruel, selfish, abusive bastard who enjoys making Holly's life miserable and is perfectly fine with making Nathan's life hell if he tries to defend his sister. At times, he borders on being a Complete Monster, or at least as close to one as this story will ever get.

I found more, but I'll deal with them later.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#95196: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:11:02 PM

Sorry I didn't want to offend anyone with the rape subtext.

anyway the motive rant of this guy about merging the worlds FWIW => https://youtu.be/s7y93cPvetc?t=976

"I think the "weak" justification is that we think a villain sucks, but barely does enough."

Exactly

edited 22nd Sep '17 2:12:27 PM by Silverblade2

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#95197: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:13:12 PM

It's not offensive. It's just a rather, in my eyes, easy way to oversell an action's heinousness.

And all he wants to do is..."be king of everything?"

edited 22nd Sep '17 2:13:43 PM by Lightysnake

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#95198: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:18:58 PM

No to Rugal.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#95199: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:20:54 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

Refreshing myself on what he actually says, hm... While we could extrapolate on what he wants to do after becoming king, we get no solid info other than... power for the sake of it. I was under the impression he'd force everyone to fight forever for his amusement... For some reason, must have been mis-remembering.

Like, remember Knack 2 and Xander? I got him approved a few pages back, but I only decided he'd be worth the EP at the last two chapters of the game. Why? Well, before that, he wanted to take over the world. That's it. There wasn't much time spent on why this would be so bad.

But his final plan pushed him out of generic villainy partly because of how petty he was and mostly because the game is very clear why what he was doing was so bad.

Unless a convincing argument is made otherwise, I will switch to being against shitty Rugal.

And I still stand by my "weak yes" argument, in case anyone thinks I've changed my mind on that.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#95200: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:22:13 PM

I think it was stated it would bring destrucion thought I can't remember exactly when and I don't want to inflict myself that movie a second time.

Not a great loss I'll move on...


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