During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Let's stow the thoughts on Bill Skarsclown until after I've made the EP. I'll get the discussion going then and then we can judge whether or not Pennywise does enough here to warrant a separate writeup.
Until then, I'll be sorting through the molten mass of my hard drive and seeing if I can save anything. Funner than a barrel full of child-eating clowns!
Hope you can fix your computer
Wow first it was my laptop, then it was Ravok's, phone, and now its Scraggle's computer. guess its not a good month to be an electronic.
Devon and Richard
edited 22nd Sep '17 2:32:34 AM by G-Editor
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
for Devlon.
@Scraggle: Damn that sucks, hope your computer get's fixed.
@Stellarvore: I do wonder if Tulpa Diane was created under similar circumstances though. Dopple Dale was birthed from Cooper's entrance into the Black Lodge but Diane and Dougie were created via the golden balls to serve specific purposes. It would make sense that Tulpa Diane was also Diane's Doppleganger, but the show never states that to be the case.
edited 22nd Sep '17 1:47:21 AM by DrPsyche
I've considered effortposting Spite in the past, but just never got around to it for various reasons. But yeah, I feel he does deserve a
. The setting has many horrific villains, but Spite excels in his tier of villainy (Voss, for instance, operates on a much higher resource level). Just to clarify, though? His deal with Gloomweaver (the demon lord) didn't end well for him at all. Yeah, deal with the devil not ending well, who'd have thought.
Also a
for Richard McFarland.
edited 22nd Sep '17 1:56:34 AM by LordXavius
I was a little daunted by potentially having to explain every villain in the game for comparison, so I'm glad someone both familiar with the game and the thread rules was able to look at it a more practical way. X3
Yeah, the game kind of has tiers: Street-level, supernatural level, and cosmic level, and within the street-level tier level of resources Spite is pretty much seen as the worst.
@Lord Xavius: You think I should effortpost Voss too, despite the possibly-Tim-Cosing thing?
Yeah, pretty much. Most characters (hero and villain) are to some degree inspired by Marvel and/or DC characters, so it's a good comparison.
![]()
I think we should wait for Voss's Letters Page (that's the weekly Word of God podcast, for the uninitiated) episode. Since they're in the process of covering the Prime Wardens and their nemeses it should happen in October or November.
edited 22nd Sep '17 5:57:54 AM by LordXavius
I know this seems unrelated, since it's not about monsters but I want to know. Do you know Nico B? He's a Letsplayer in Youtube that is personally my favorite youtubers right now. If you check his Danganronpa, Persona or even Kingdom Hearts let's play you'll see a very hilarous, but talented gamer.
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - GiselleAlright, my last Kelly example for the moment...
The work? Undertaker's Moon. At the start of the novel, in 1960s Ireland, undertaker Patrick O'Shea is returning home to his beautiful wife, young son and baby daughter...and finds them savagely mauled. The culprit? A massive, bipedal silver wolf, known in folklore as the Arget Bethir, the silver beast. Patrick feels its teeth rip into his throat...and awakens later with his family, transforming into a wolf himself, as the beast who turned them commands them...
Decades later, in Old Hickory, Tennessee...the O'Sheas arrive in town. Patrick buying out the local funeral home, his benefactor, the 'Squire' Crom McManus facilitating everything...the reason? The O'Sheas are werewolves and are using the corpses of the dead to feed when the hunger is on them every month. Werewolves can change at will, but the moon gives them an insatiable hunger for flesh....unfortunately, the son Devin isn't content to prey on corpses and attracts unwanted attention, to Crom's fury...
Who is our monster?
Remember how I said Kelly had some unorthodox keepers? Well...Squire Crom McManus, the Arget Bethir, the Silver Beast...years ago, Crom, in Erin Ireland, in the 8th century AD, rode through Ireland after selling his soul to Lucifer in return for the power to transform into a powerful wolf. Riding from shore to shore, Crom would attack village after village, building followers bitten by him to be cursed with lycanthropy to obtain food for him. When traveling through the province of Meath, Crom attacked a holy abbey, killing and devouring every priest therein, save for one monk who fled, supposedly casting himself into the sea...though rumors persisted of a 'Gaelic Ghost' hounding Crom and his followers, until only Crom was left...until record of him vanished after the 15th century.
Now, I mentioned Devin earlier...Devin soon tires of feeding on corpses and attacks and kills a football player. Crom is furious with him an threatens to kill him if he makes trouble for them. See, Crom has gone to the Retired Monster phase of his career. While he's revolted by feeding on carcasses, he realizes the necessity for survival and spends a good chunk of the novel trying to keep Devin under control, even as Devin gets increasingly defiant...including turning two local troublemakers to hunt and bring him food so he can Exact Words his way out of his vow to Crom.
So, you might be thinking that Crom is a bit too pragmatic and retired to make it next to our boy Devin, right? Especially when Devin takes the oh-so-logical conclusion in dealing with a guy dating his younger sister by murdering his mother? You'd be wrong. A small group learn of the werewolves' existence, and team up with an Irish drifter named Ian Danaher who gives the novel's hero Brian (whose mother was murdered by Devin as mentioned above) a Celtic cross said to 'keep the beasties away.' The team go to finish off the werewolves out of a series of grudges. One of them? After his wife died, the O'Sheas ate her body. The football player Jake? Devin ate his friend, and Crom is also dating his mother. The O'Sheas put up little resistance, save for Devin who's taken out in a fight, but Patrick, his wife and Rosie accept their fates, glad to be free of the curses.
Crom, at this point, has decided that there's a bit of a problem and he's not willing to risk his hide for the O'Sheas./..he's also come to a conclusion he's too scared of modern man. He decides he can start hunting again, head to the cities and prey on the homeless and runaway children, reclaiming the true spirit of the Beast again. Upon trying to flee, he runs into Jake's mother Joyce, who accidentally hits him with her car. Crom promptly attacks her, seeking to vent his fury at Jake on her, intending to rape her, torture her and leave her disemboweled body hanging from the nearby bridge. Before he can however, Ian Danaher interferes....it turns out there's one thing that can stop the Werewolf besides silver: another werewolf. Ian is the surviving Gaelic monk of legend. Before throwing himself into the sea, he was bitten by Crom and has been a werewolf ever since, hunting Crom relentlessly and using his Celtic cross to suppress his urges. The two werewolves transform and square off, but Crom manages to get the better of his opponent, inflicting a fatal wound...only for Joyce to stab a silver carving knife between Crom's shoulders, finally killing the Arget Bethir, as Ian passes peacefully.
Heinous standard?
Like I said...for the majority of the novel, Crom seems far too pragmatic and almost cowardly to count. He's a jerk, but his worst atrocities are offscreen and Devin is a bastard, killing people and turning two thugs who'll abuse their powers just so he can have a hot meal...and then the last part of the book hits when Crom decides to get his groove back and rape and murder Joyce...and the final novella is a prequel, showcasing Crom's rampages through old Ireland. It doesn't disappoint. Crom is a monster, massacring people by the truckload, slaughtering everyone in an abbey, turning people into his cursed werewolf servants and being a total bastard all the way through. Devin is firmly blown the hell out of the water with a paltry few murders, as far as his proxy werewolf servants. Crom also possesses a streak of sadistic cruelty a mile wide, which he showcases with relish that nobody else seems to possess. Besides Crom and Devin, the O'Sheas are firmly sympathetic as well
Mitigating Qualities?
Besides his foray into Pragmatic Villainy? No. Crom cares nothing for the O'Sheas and plans to dispose of them when he's finished using them, as he frequently does with his servants and caretakers. He also cares nothing for Joyce, seeing dating her as a pleasant diversion, which he makes abundantly clear. Besides that? No, we see Crom's villainy in flashbacks through the novella and he's continued such evil for centuries. Most werewolves are presented as sympathetic. Ian Danaher is a kind man who represses his monster side and seeks to destroy Crom, and the O'Sheas have sympathy to them...even Devin, who never had a chance to be anything but a beast, while Patrick and Mary are firmly sympathetic who hate what they are. Rosie, the daughter, was a baby when she was turned and has never known anything else, but is a firmly sweet girl who never does much evil (which makes her death pretty sad as well)...so yeah, Crom has a nasty niche here, especially as he knowingly became a monster.
Conclusion?
An easy yes to the Arget Bethir
edited 22nd Sep '17 10:51:52 AM by Lightysnake
With no new votes for Goodyear II or Goldstein (thanks a bunch for ignoring me twice, btw), I'm just going to write-up Viktor and Oswald.
- Prince Viktor is a violent, unhinged lunatic who becomes the leader of Russia and England once his parents die. Before becoming a world leader, Viktor murders three prostitutes for no reason, and kills his two brothers when he learns that he will be skipped in the line of succession due to his belligerent behavior. Once he obtains power, Viktor immediately sets out on a war of aggression with Persia and China with the intent on expanding his territory and power. Viktor organizes genocides in Afghanistan and Baluchistan, partly out of a desire to keep them in line and partly to fuel his own sadism. Viktor also organizes massive pogroms across Russia, killing many thousands of Jews. When England rebels against him due to his actions, Viktor orders his troops to raze London and kill every man, woman and child. When France and Sweden blockade Russia's ports to stop his depravity, Viktor seriously considers starting a global war with them, prompting the armed forces to launch a coup and have him killed.
- Charles Oswald, also known as John F. Kennedy, or the Beast of America, slowly rises through the ranks of the Republican Union to become its most feared and hated leader. Born in a ghetto for Catholics, Slavs, and the Irish, Oswald kills his family, fakes his death, and kills a forger after the latter gives him a new identity in order to blend in with the rest of society without concern. Becoming a major figure in the Union, Oswald demonstrates his brutality during the World War when he has every person marked as an Inferior rounded up and murdered en masse, and organizes random massacres of southern civilians to terrify them into obedience. Once Joe Steele dies, Oswald takes control of the government, expanding his violent spree across the entire south. Oswald also organizes several false-flag terrorist attacks in order to give himself more power and control of the country. To show the other nations of the world that he's as serious as Steele, Oswald has Rio nuked, killing over three million people. To expand the Union's power, Oswald supports genocidal dictatorships in Indonesia and South Africa, and conquers England, Scotland, and Ireland, using massive force and excessive collateral damage. After Kaiser Wilhelm expresses disgust with Oswald's actions, Oswald tries to have him murdered. Oswald also orders the extermination of black people in the Union, killing many millions. When people all across the Union start to rebel, Oswald nukes a rebelling city, planning to do the same twice more. When a coup is launched against him, Oswald orders the capital of Philadelphia to be nuked to spite his enemies.
Any suggestions before it goes on the drafts page?
Now, I hate to be that guy, but now that we have eight keepers from AH.com stories and could easily have more in the future, is it time to make a subpage for it?
edited 22nd Sep '17 8:53:56 AM by ThePest179
Hmm, Crom seems like a
on the prequel alone.
So that bit about being revolted by feeding on carcasses and trying to keep Devin under control is only so he's not exposed as the beast he is?
Viktor and Oswald's writeups look good. What's the tally on the other 2?
I'm fine with a separate AH subpage.
Duh, again I'm an idiot. It's not the feeding on human flesh, it's the feeding on DEAD human flesh that disgusts him.
edited 22nd Sep '17 10:48:42 AM by ACW
If the villain is about to kill the hero, but then grants them a small request with no strings attached, is that a redeeming Pet the Dog moment? I ask I played a game where this exact scenario happens, and the villain is currenly listed as a CM. I don't want to name the work unless I think it's worth arguing, because I don't want to give away the big twist if I don't have to.

Ouch, sorry about your computer
This Pennywise would be the first King character with 3 iterations counting (the original; this one; and Curry's version, who doesn't do enough to deserve his own entry but provides the lovely page quote).
edited 22nd Sep '17 12:17:26 AM by ACW