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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#94751: Sep 16th 2017 at 9:38:18 AM

Unsure on Sun Quan, as it seems like it's ambiguous if it's "You're taking my DAUGHTER" or "You're taking MY daughter", and since I've not seen the film, I'll abstain for now.

Incidentally, if he does get enough votes, would that be Simon Yam's first CM?

edited 16th Sep '17 9:39:03 AM by ACW

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#94752: Sep 16th 2017 at 9:57:56 AM

[tup] Delack, have to think on Sun Quan.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#94753: Sep 16th 2017 at 10:00:01 AM

Simon Yam has a CM from Full Contact actually.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#94754: Sep 16th 2017 at 10:49:59 AM

According to my personal philosophy on Offscreen Heroism, if he never shows his daughter any love, I must vote [tup], otherwise I may be falling into hypocrisy.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#94755: Sep 16th 2017 at 10:56:34 AM

[tup] Sun Quan [tdown] Flying Fox. Doesn't get to do enough.

edited 16th Sep '17 11:55:39 AM by ReynTime250

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#94756: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:26:44 AM

I've watched the film and I'd have to say yes to Sun Quan. There's no open affection from him at all. His kid's just a possession.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#94758: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:34:12 AM

Guys, one way or the other, please cast a vote on Flying Fox, too

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#94759: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:39:07 AM

Gonna abstain on Sun Quan. [tdown] to Flying Fox, not sure he does enough.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#94761: Sep 16th 2017 at 1:10:14 PM

[tdown] to flying fox, unless more victims are mentioned he doesn't seem bad enough.

  • Here's my proposal for Valter from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
  • The Work.
    • Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones is a tactical RPG about the continent of Magvel. In this continent several kingdoms have lived together in harmony for years. But one day Emperor Vigarde of the kingdom of Grado suddenly orders his army to attack the other kingdoms. The story follows princess Erica and prince Ephraim of the kingdom Renais who are working to defeat Vigarde.
  • Who Is He?
    • Valter is one of the three generals hired by king Vigarde along with Riev and Caellach when Grado went on the war path. He was originally a general alongside Glen and Duessel but was dismissed for killing innocents and was replaced by Selena.
  • What does he do?
    • The first important thing Valter does is confront an escaping Erika and her bodyguard Seth, in the ensuing fight Seth is injured but Valter lets them escape so he can "savor the hunt.. the kill." He is seen at various points during the first third of the game ordering around his subordinates, all while showing a very creepy fixation on Erika (he later shows a similar fixation on Ephraim) and a lust for bloodshed and battle. In the second third he interrupts Selena's fight with a treason accused Duessel to accuse her of treason, sending her back to the capital and instating his subordinate Beran in her place. Here he reveals that he lied to Selena to keep Grado from winning too quickly, also when Beran losses he opts to flee instead of being killed by Valter. By the way throughout all of this he's been intentionally sabotaging Grado to extend the length of the war. After this he meets up with Glen who let Erika go and refuses to fight until he talks with Vigarde about the accusations that she killed innocents. Valter reveals that he despises Glen and then kills him in a duel. He then takes Glen's mangled corpse back to Glen's brother Cormag and tells him Erika killed Glen, all while mocking Glen's death. When we next see him during his and Caellach's fight with Erika and Ephraim he is commended for his depravity by Riev (even admitting that the description of him as a "wretched beast" is pretty spot on) and is implied to have raped innocent women during the war, something Caellach (who is also very evil) finds disgusting. He openly lusts after Erika and mocks Cormag and Ephraim if they fight him. Ultimately he is cut down and spends his final moments in agony, a fitting death for such a monster.
  • Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors?
    • One, according to Duessel his insanity was, in part, caused by Valter taking a cursed lance from him when his own broke. However Duessel points out that Valter was still very crazy and violent and as Cormag points out, the weapon is only as good or evil as it's wielder.
  • Heinousness
    • Arguably the worst of the three new generals hired by Vigarde. Being a vicious Blood Knight, a Bad Boss, a Card-Carrying Villain, and an implied rapist. While Caellach is a sociopath with delusions of grandeur, and Riev is a manipulative demon worshiper he's the only person seen actively participating in war crimes and also sabotaging his own side.
  • Verdict?
    • He's a keeper though I may also propose Caellach and Riev soon.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#94762: Sep 16th 2017 at 1:12:48 PM

Nope. Valter has been voted down on grounds on agency. Use the search function, please; Riev's been voted down too.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#94763: Sep 16th 2017 at 1:13:52 PM

Not sure on Sun but definite no on Fox.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#94764: Sep 16th 2017 at 1:27:31 PM

I THINK Fox has been rejected before, FWIW.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#94766: Sep 16th 2017 at 1:46:48 PM

Alright... before I carry on voting here I just wanted to bring something up:

I was talking with ACW about skimming off potholes from some entries that have an excessive amount on them. Since I don't wanna clog the form with entries that are barely being changed, I'm just going to run them through the drafts.

Very minor edits but nevertheless I don't want the appearance of them happening behind closed doors so if anyone's got any qualms, lemme know.

Cheers!

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#94768: Sep 16th 2017 at 1:57:52 PM

The rape stuff for Valter is the definition of offscreen villainy...I'm not sure anything here overcomes what we'd previously ruled on Valter, unfortunately.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#94769: Sep 16th 2017 at 2:02:31 PM

[tup] Doviculus, Shiva, Irons, Dalack, Sun Quan

[tdown] Fox, Valtar

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#94770: Sep 16th 2017 at 2:18:55 PM

Alright I looked it up and I understand why they don't count, i caellach probably doesn't count either but I'll have to look up things about him first.

edited 16th Sep '17 2:33:49 PM by papyru30

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#94771: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:45:32 PM

[tup] Sun Quan, [tdown] Flying Fox and Valter.

So I haven't been on the thread lately becuase I have been busy with my writing projects (as well as hamming and binge watching some nostalgic shows and movies; there's even a few old characters that I'm considering revisiting, although I probably won't). That said I have finished playing The Saboteur, and I think Dierker's write up could use a rewrite, and need some corection; particularly how he's not "responsible for all the bad things in the game." I've also decided to do a rewrite for Freddy Krueger, mostly because I find his current entry at little...how do I put this ? Hammy.

  • A Nightmare on Elm Street: Freddy Krueger is the dream invading ghost of a child murderer, seeking to continue his spree in life. In his mortal life, he kept missing children's pictures of his victims in a scrapbook and posed as an unassuming, caring father before his wife discovered the truth; at which point he murdered his wife with no hesitation. When he got off on a technicality, the people of Springwood lynched Freddy, at which point he makes a bargain with demonic forces to become in his own words "what nightmares are made of". He uses his newfound powers to find increasingly creative ways to torture and murder his dozens of victims for his own amusement by using their primal fears against them, all the while cracking sick jokes; at which point he harvests the souls of his victims and keeps them in a hellish state within his body to draw their power. By the time of Freddy's Dead: The Final Nightmare, Freddy has amassed a body count in the hundreds, reducing Springwood to a child's graveyard and driving the adults into madness. He goes on to taunt a girl by appearing as her sexually abusive father, and even attempts to murder his own daughter Kathryn upon reuniting with her. Freddy makes it clear to Kathryn of his intent to continue his killing spree across the world until he runs out of victims, declaring "every town has an elm street." In Freddy vs. Jason, Freddy returns a final time, resurrecting Jason Voorhees from Hell and loosing him onto Springwood to spread fear in his name. Growing annoyed that Jason is killing those he wanted for himself, Freddy makes an attempt to kill his pawn; in the same film, it's revealed he murdered Lori Cambell's mother and attempts to rape Lori herself in her nightmare. Freddy is one of the few Slasher Movie killers with a distinct and talkative personality, and has always simply been a sadistic monster who extends his victims' suffering for its own sake.

  • The Saboteur: Kurt Dierker first appears to be little more than an arrogant, racing rival to Seam Devlin, merely hitting on Veronique and sabotaging Sean's car during a race. When Sean and his friend Jules plan to sabotage Dierker's own car in revenge, is it revealed that Dierker is actually an SS-Commandant for the Nazi's overseeing the occupation in Paris, in charge of torturing and executing any suspected spies and political prisoners. Dierker has Sean and Jules captured and tortured, before coldly shooting Jules in the head in front of Sean. During which Dierker shows himself to be a total sadist, fondly caressing various implements of torture. Dierker is said to flay his torture victims alive when he's done with them and is also in charge of the terror squads that are later set loose on Paris. It's discovered Dierker killed Jules to cover up the Nazi's plot to create atomic weapons. When Sean wipes out the Nazi leadership and destroys their weapons factory, Dierker takes control of what's left of the Nazi's before the people of Paris rise against them. When Sean tracks Dierker down to the Eiffel Tower, where he witnesses Dierker forcing his men to kill themselves and eachother and kills some of them himself for failing him.

edited 16th Sep '17 3:48:23 PM by Beast

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
TheFallofElDorado Since: May, 2016
#94772: Sep 16th 2017 at 4:53:20 PM

There are 2 characters from South Park who I feel should be added to the CM list (and before you ask, neither one is Cartman).

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#94774: Sep 16th 2017 at 4:55:55 PM

[up][up] South Park is on the Never Again list.


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