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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#94676: Sep 15th 2017 at 8:27:02 AM

Yeah, I've just finished watching it. Doviculus has way too much personality to be a GDV... not exactly an entirely rounded character but the elements of narcissism, sadism, and many hints of Laughably Evil are there. Albeit... the latter part continues to give me pause.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#94677: Sep 15th 2017 at 9:04:23 AM

[up] Is it Laughably Evil like Bill Cipher and the Joker where they're goofy but still played seriously in the form of Black Comedy or just not taken seriously at all?

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#94678: Sep 15th 2017 at 9:10:13 AM

[up] I'm guessing the Laughably Evil in kind of Nero's way (A.K.A. Not being taken seriously) I guess or you could say the latter

edited 15th Sep '17 9:12:21 AM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#94679: Sep 15th 2017 at 9:19:30 AM

That's what I'm having trouble deciding. In some ways, it's the former kind of laughable — some of Doviculus' quips, whilst amusing and sardonic, are amazingly cruel (mocking Eddie about his mother by coldly telling him to "grow a pair as big as your mother's" before confronting him again, and making a cool one-liner after fatally spearing Lars) but in other ways it... isn't (the aforementioned rages against cars and especially the weird BSDM demon motifs, resulting in minions he constantly tortures being rendered Too Kinky to Torture, which means one of his biggest potential crimes is reduced to darkly hilarious more than anything). It's a tough case and the game being tongue-in-cheek as it is makes me wary.

edited 15th Sep '17 9:25:51 AM by Scraggle

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#94680: Sep 15th 2017 at 10:50:00 AM

I have played Full Throttle, I will add. I take it you're thinking of Adrian Ripburger? I can't remember him being heinous enough.

As for Doviculus...the game is damn funny...but that humor largely comes from Eddie and his being voiced by Jack Black, and how he reacts to the situation. Doviculus is humorous, but that humor is never used to make him the butt of the joke. nor is his evil played for laughs. He reminds me more of Xykon than anyone, and he has a clear personality, motives, etc.

Furthermore, the fact he's a demon can't be used against him as Eddie's mother was a demon who did a Heel–Face Turn. Overall...I think Doviculus hits all the points here, so I have to give him a yes. The game is tongue-in-cheek, but Doviculus stands out all the more because of it. It's more a situation where I'd compare it to Order of the Stick rather than A Million Ways To Die In the West

edited 15th Sep '17 10:57:23 AM by Lightysnake

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#94681: Sep 15th 2017 at 11:13:24 AM

Upon reflection... I might agree. Doviculus has funny moments and the game itself is a black comedy, but that alone doesn't bar Doviculus from counting because when the stakes are down and the game's conflict is in the forefront? Doviculus and his actions are taken seriously, what he does easily passes him for the trope, and some of his more witty lines arguably make him even worse in some aspects than if he was just a generic evil overlord with generic evil overlord dialogue.

Yea to Doviculus.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#94683: Sep 15th 2017 at 11:27:48 AM

Alright, one more example to propose before I do my writeups:

What's the Work?

Legend of Heavenly Sphere Shurato is a Shonen action series that's a lot like Saint Seiya...except it uses Hindu mythology, which is a rarity in Japanese media to say the least. The series concerns young Shurato, a martial artist who, along with his best friend Gai, discovers he is a reincarnation of a warrior who defended the goddess Vishnu in the alternate reality, Tenkuukai. Shurato and Gai both don Shakti, holy armor, powered by heir internal energy called Sohma...unfortunately, Vishnu's greatest warrior Indrah betrays her, framing Shurato when he turns Vishnu to stone. And gai joins him....Now, the first arc is spent fighting Indrah and his allies among the guards with the aid of the only ones who buy Shurato's innocence...after defeating Indrah at the end, though...the true villain emerges. Shiva, The Goddess of Destruction.

...who is female but voiced by Norio Wakomoto who is famous for his deep voices, which is really kind of unsettling, but moving on.

Who is Shiva and What Does She Do?

Shiva, 10,000 years ago, rose in rebellion against the great god Brahma, mastering the Black Sohma, the darkness within herself. Her followers became known as the Asura and a brutal crusade to subjugate existence was launched. Vishnu led her forces against Shiva, saving existence when Brahma's power defeat Shiva and sealed her and her followers away.

Unfortunately, before her fall, Shiva corrupted the soul of one of Vishnu's warriors and used the darkness in Indra's heart to later corrupt him as well. Making him turn on Vishnu as well as influencing his men to hunt down Shurato (with collateral damage on the way), Shiva slowly weakened her seal. When defeated and slain, Indra returns to himself to warn Shurato about what's coming.

Freed from her bonds, Shiva begins rebuilding her power and launches an attack on Tenkuukai...except to test their defenses, she throws out a full hundred thousand of her own soldiers just to get a feel for Tenkuukai's defenses. Her soldiers attack the civilians as well, and we see Shiva's power burn a number of fleeing civilians alive. For amusement, Shiva begins vaporizing entire groups of civilians and in other cases uses her power to corrupt an twist others, making them slaughter eachother.

Revealing Gai as one of her guards and servants to hurt Shurato, Shiva reveals she was the one who corrupted Gai's incarnation's soul millennia ago and turned him from a kindhearted young man into a murderous killer. Shurato finds the Shakti of Brahma to have the strength to fight Shiva, but not before Shiva uses her power to murder Vishnu, depriving the world of a protector. Forced to kill Gai in his way, Shura confronts Shiva...who promptly kills and absorbs vast swaths of her own followers to power up and begins to use the Black Sohma inside everyone, intending to go full on Omnicidal Maniac and kill everyone there. Unlocking Brahma's power, Shurato wounds Shiva mortally, and unable to control the Black Sohma in herself, Shiva is finally destroyed once and for all.

Mitigating Qualities?

Zero. Cares nothing for anyone but herself and doesn't bat an eye when her men die.

Heinous Standard?

Blows it out of the water. No other villain comes close, and almost all of them are under her influence to begin with. She loves being the corrupter.

Conclusion?

Not a deep character really, but an easy keeper. She has enough of a personality and a defined chracter.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#94684: Sep 15th 2017 at 11:32:11 AM

Yes to... a female character voiced by Norio Wakamoto? Wow. But yeah, Shiva is a keep.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#94685: Sep 15th 2017 at 11:34:51 AM

[tup] Shiva. Also wait Shiva is voiced by the guy who did Cell? What?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#94686: Sep 15th 2017 at 11:35:33 AM

Let's see: Kills 100,000 of her own people, gleefully kills and corrupts innocents...yeah, [tup] Shiva.

[up][up] Not just Cell. According to his page, he was the Japanese voice (whether it was originally Japanese or whether he was the dub voice) for these other CMs: Vicious; Goetia; Imran Zakhaev; Kagato; Sinister; Mumkhar; Nikita Dragovich; Nobunaga; and the recently-approved Overlord Zenon. WOW!

P.S. Lighty, currently the Sengoku Basara entries are only on the AniManga page. Is this correct, and/or they for the video game?

edited 15th Sep '17 11:46:46 AM by ACW

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#94687: Sep 15th 2017 at 12:13:50 PM

[tup] Shiva. Would you say Wakamoto is the Japanese equivalent to Clancy Brown, at least as far as having approved Complete Monster candidates through voice work? I kind of want to say yes. And I'm sure there's others. He's had a lot of work over his lengthy career. Still voices Cell, too, as far as I'm aware.

[up] Hey, ACW, I don't think the animated version of Sinister is listed. I don't think he does enough compared to the plethora of other horrible villains.

edited 15th Sep '17 12:14:55 PM by PolarPhantom

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#94688: Sep 15th 2017 at 12:14:31 PM

Keep Sengoku Basara on the anime page. They count for deeds form the anime itself

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#94689: Sep 15th 2017 at 12:15:22 PM

[up] Cool.

[up][up] It sure seems possible (or, for that matter, Mark Hamill). And yes, you are correct about Animated!Sinister.

edited 15th Sep '17 12:17:47 PM by ACW

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#94690: Sep 15th 2017 at 1:02:16 PM

[tup] Shiva and BDSM Satan from '"Brutal Legend''

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#94691: Sep 15th 2017 at 1:52:58 PM

I'm gonna be cleaning up some entries soon some point after I do my next EP. That'll be before next weekend when I see both Lego Ninjago Movie and The Golden Circle.

Watched Stranger Things earlier this week and it was SO good! Clear why Brenner and the Demogorgon don't count (one's a WIE and the other is a hungry animal with no Moral Agency).

How come Stranger Thing 2 has the discussion date of 11/14 when two weeks after it premieres is 11/10?

Fighteer MOD Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94692: Sep 15th 2017 at 2:05:46 PM

Hi, gents. Some business stuff here. The mod staff is considering moving the FAQ to a wiki article, tentatively at Administrivia.Complete Monster. Please do not edit it without permission, but I'd like to get some feedback. I've tried to reorganize the concepts and make its flow more visually appealing.

The mod staff is also going to review it and privately decide on any additional changes. Thanks for your attention.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#94693: Sep 15th 2017 at 2:10:06 PM

I like it. I'd still keep the page topper.

BTW, something I've been thinking:
For resolved items, it mentions 2 special cases (a new work in the same continuity; new evidence), but it's not clear necessarily that those apply even to the "Never Again" list. See, for example, Scar. Maybe make it "If you bring these up (unless it's one of the two cases listed above..."?

edited 15th Sep '17 2:11:02 PM by ACW

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#94694: Sep 15th 2017 at 2:24:26 PM

Making the rules an official page sounds like a great idea.

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#94695: Sep 15th 2017 at 2:26:59 PM

I am also in favour of the new page. It's certainly cleaner.

And ACW, Mark Hamill is also a good comparison for Wakamoto. I just went with ol' Clancy because him and Norio are beloved for their Evil Sounds Deep performances, so it was the first comparison that came to mind.

A question, though: We often make exceptions to the "No Group" rule if it's two or three working together. It's something that's bugged me for some time. While I personally think we should keep doing it, I often wonder if we're right to do it. I'm conflicted, is what I'm saying, and I guess this is as good a time as any to bring it up.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#94696: Sep 15th 2017 at 2:31:08 PM

I say two is fine, three is PROBABLY fine, if pushing it, and anything beyond that's PROBABLY too much,

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#94697: Sep 15th 2017 at 2:32:12 PM

EDIT: Nevermind, I see my point was already addressed on the new page.

edited 15th Sep '17 2:33:25 PM by chasemaddigan

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#94698: Sep 15th 2017 at 2:39:11 PM

That text is much too long. I don't think we can expect people to read it much less memorize it. I'll see to write a shorter text tomorrow.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94699: Sep 15th 2017 at 3:05:24 PM

The purpose of having it all there is so that people can easily refer to it. Putting the lengthy explanations in a static article is kind of the point, so we don't have to type them all out, and so people can find them without having to search the topic.

edited 15th Sep '17 3:05:37 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#94700: Sep 15th 2017 at 3:23:28 PM

@Lightysnake: Hmmmm.....Yeah, Going to be honest here, I was originally going to bring Ripburger to This discussion thread But I dropped it due to the same thinking as You. I Don't think he's heinous enough given that his crimes consisted of murdering one victim,framing the protagonist for the murder And attempting to murder Said protagonist After he got his plans exposed......However, I don't think he could make a cut either since the Hero of the game, Ben, Also contribute to the heinous standard Too...... If Ripburger made into the CM territory,—Which is unlikely—then he would probably being another CM portrayed by Mark Hamill tbh so yeah

Also, [tup] Shiva.....I'm guessing this girl is actually a God who got a good moral agency No?

Re: Making a rules becoming an official page

Actually That's a Pretty nice idea. However, How do you guys should link it especially for the newcomers though?

edited 15th Sep '17 3:29:13 PM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

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