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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#94426: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:10:31 AM

[up][up][up] Care to elaborate on what happened with Fettel for his FE? Yea........Not familiar with Fear universe but I would love to heard it

[down] Ah! Thanks for the info

edited 12th Sep '17 8:11:37 AM by ElfenLiedFan90

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94427: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:10:36 AM

There is some question as to how much agency Paxton Fettel has — although he's a playable character in the third game, he's technically dead at the time, and his entire childhood was spent as the victim of terrific abuse and being psychically manipulated by Alma. So it's kind of understandable that he wants to consume Alma and become God, or as near as makes no difference.

I mean, if he doesn't have a Freudian Excuse, it's hard to see how anyone could.

edited 12th Sep '17 8:15:12 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#94428: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:17:06 AM

I talked agency in the original EP. The game never brings it up and the Megabug is clearly intelligent as you've read already (not like the Shadow Queen, who follows her nature and doesn't exhibit things like that.) Again, it is like Mephiles in this regard.

There's someone else on the thread who can help me prove my points but he is not online yet.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#94429: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:21:42 AM

From your description of Megabug, it sounds like agency might not be an issue but there's not any evidence one way or another.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94430: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:22:24 AM

@Elfen: Here's the full story. Fettel is the younger of the two Origin prototypes, both birthed from Alma while she was in a medically induced coma. They were raised in a hidden facility by Armacham and Harlan Wade, who treated them as lab rats with no rights or identity, abusing them both physically and psychologically. The older brother had no psychic powers but was gifted physically, later becoming the Point Man of the first and third games.

Fettel, in turn, inherited his mother's power and rapidly grew strong enough to control minds and matter. However, his psychic connection with Alma made him unstable and prone to fits of madness, such as scribbling on the walls in blood, launching telekinetic storms, or murdering people by bursting their brains. When he was ten years old, Alma reached out from her containment and took control of him completely, using the nascent bond with the Replica soldiers to cause them to go on a rampage, inflicting numerous deaths and property damage.

When they realized what had happened, Armacham shut down the project, "killing" Alma and closing the facility. What happened to the brothers afterward is not known: they somehow escaped or were released into society. Many years later, Point Man has joined the military and distinguished himself with his astonishing stamina and reflexes, while Fettel has gone missing. The events of the first game are kicked off when Fettel abruptly surfaces, having adopted unsavory habits like cannibalism, and has shown up in the Fairport area in the company of Replica soldiers that he's controlling. Their apparent objective is to assault the Armacham facility to release Alma.

During the game, Point Man kills Fettel, but fails to stop Harlan Wade from releasing Alma. Fettel's next appearance is in the F.E.A.R. 2: Reborn DLC, where his psychic ghost manipulates a Replica clone into becoming his new host body. The canonicity of this is somewhat dubious, and the third game more or less ignores it, as Fettel's ghost rescues Point Man from Armacham and the two brothers embark on a quest to return to Fairport to "rejoin" Alma, who is in the process of giving birth (thanks to the events at the end of the second game). Her contractions are creating waves of psychic energy that are tearing the shit out of everything.

Point Man expresses the desire to destroy Alma so that the apocalypse will stop. Fettel wishes to cannibalize her corpse to assimilate her psychic powers, becoming an unstoppable force. The game ends with either outcome, so we don't get to see what the world would look like if Fettel succeeds.

However, Fettel's dialog throughout the game indicates that he feels sympathy for his mother, who suffered such horrible abuse, and wishes to carry on her legacy. He thinks that this legacy gives the brothers the right to become gods, but he also harbors a passionate, desperate hate for Harlan Wade, who created them, and defeating his psychic ghost, summoned by Alma out of fear, is the game's ultimate objective.

edited 12th Sep '17 8:26:14 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#94431: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:28:42 AM

[up] I see........Thanks for the info, From what I read...............You could say that you felt really bad for Fettel and he does have feelings towards his mother Alma so yea......... I think he's a no in that case. I heard that Harlan Wade doesn't count........I forgot why

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#94432: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:31:25 AM

Yeah, from the description of MegaBug, I didn't really see a discernible motivation.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94433: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:32:20 AM

Harlan Wade doesn't count because of his genuine love for his daughter, which we get to see in flashbacks. He regrets the decision to commit her to containment, even though he recognizes the danger, and he flat out refuses to kill her until it is starkly apparent that there's no other choice. This redeeming trait is enough to keep him from CM status, although he is an awful person nonetheless.

edited 12th Sep '17 8:32:39 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#94434: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:36:11 AM

Larkmarn, you summed it up better than I could actually... there isn't any evidence to lacking it or having it, which places it in the middle.

Its motive is power, its goal is omnicide. Simple, Flat Character. There. That's how I see it.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#94436: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:41:37 AM

Agreeing here. The motivation — what little there may or may not be — isn't exactly obvious.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#94437: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:43:36 AM

Huh.........I guess people in FEAR doesn't count then. Ah well

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#94438: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:49:05 AM

Yeah, as we've discussed before, the "problem" note  with the F.E.A.R. series is that it is so thoroughly saturated by people who have committed horrific crimes that it's really hard to pick out any one person as ultimately responsible for the whole mess, and at the same time the writers gave most of the characters at least some sympathetic traits, giving the story a degree of nuance that one doesn't always find in horror games.

edited 12th Sep '17 8:50:53 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#94439: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:55:23 AM

The thing with a GDV is that they are not smart. Quite the opposite, they just laugh and do evil things because evil. The Megabug isn't like that because of its gambit and that's why I think it isn't a GDV. It orchestrated everything. GD Vs do not do that. There is not a single GDV who ever had a big gambit behind them who didn't subvert the trope (unlike the thing we're discussing).

I don't want to start sounding like a Single-Issue Wonk so if I eventually do, tell me and I'll stop trying to defend it.

edited 12th Sep '17 9:00:59 AM by MahStache

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#94440: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:55:45 AM

Yeah, Megabug seems like he may be a GDV. Granted, omnicide along isn't disqualifying; it's just that, while Judge Death and the other Dark Judges are simply omnicidal, they're just so ridiculously over-the-top about it.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#94441: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:05:22 AM

Sorry about not being on, my internet was garbage at College. Anyway [tup] Megabug.

The thing clearly manipulates the scenario to gain more power. It has just barely enough characterization to count. I'm not worried about agency. It's never mentioned to have agency in the first place.

Just because it's an Orcus on His Throne doesn't make it a GDV, it's too intelligent for that.

@Youtubenut, just because it's from Mario + Rabbids doesn't mean we're scraping the bottom of the barrel. It's an actual dark villain in a lighthearted game. Just because the game is a silly concept doesn't mean it can't have a Complete Monster.

edited 12th Sep '17 9:17:09 AM by ReynTime250

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#94442: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:10:18 AM

Yeah, agency isn't my concern (and bringing up the Shadow Queen doesn't really mean anything either as she was cut under the GDV clause, not agency... something that makes me even more wary on Megabug counting as we judged Shadow Queen to fail the qualifications despite the fact she had way more lines than Megabug). It's characterization, and I fail to equate how destroying the universe = a material gain for it. There's extremely little to measure.

What's the current tally on it, by the way?

edited 12th Sep '17 9:10:41 AM by Scraggle

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#94443: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:26:09 AM

[up] Besides from possible GDV I also thought the Shadow Queen had Offscreen Villainy issues.

As for a tally I'm counting up Mah Staches vote with that too

No has quite a lot of votes. More than yes. Looks like the Megabug probably doesn't count, not sure how I feel about that but I'll deal with it. Looks like Super Mario Bros isn't getting a redirect page for the Video Games section just yet. Despite it's possible GDV status the Megabug is the darkest Mario villain in a while. BTW keep King Boo, even though the Megabug's goal beats King Boo by double the universes, there's a difference of resources (Non contenders for the CM role still boost up the heinous standard). We're comparing a ghost to a cataclysmic demon.

edited 12th Sep '17 9:33:41 AM by ReynTime250

MahStache from Old Jersey, not the bad new one Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#94444: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:33:03 AM

There are 6 yeses and 8 no's. It would be even if Emperors and elfenliedfan didn't change, I think. It's too close right now and we shouldn't end voting quite yet... though it probably isn't going up.

edited 12th Sep '17 9:34:14 AM by MahStache

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#94445: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:35:41 AM

Oh, yeah, if anyone's thinking of cutting King Boo, I'd say definite no to that. Boo's got Megabug mooched in personal villainy (gleefully trapping his enemies and their friends in what's explicitly presented as And I Must Scream, tortuously experimenting on his own minions, etc.) and while Boo's master stroke isn't quite as far-reaching as Megabug's, the reason he tries to destroy the universe (sheer spite) I think easily balances the scales. Resources may factor in as well, but that's what I'm using to say King Boo still merits a keep.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#94446: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:40:57 AM

Would that really matter? Both games don't take place in the same continuity.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#94447: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:48:29 AM

[up] Are we sure about that? Paper Mario is completely different in how it even looks to the main series games and the only striking similarity is that it's got Mario in it. This looks similar to the main series and we clearly see Mushroom Kingdom at the start of the game.

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#94448: Sep 12th 2017 at 10:25:22 AM

King Boo as a Complete Monster would only apply to Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, right?

Also, giving a [tdown] to the Megabug unless more convincing evidence to the contrary emerges.

edited 12th Sep '17 10:25:54 AM by dragonfire5000

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#94449: Sep 12th 2017 at 10:28:20 AM

Okay one thing, nothing says a GDV has to be dumb. They have to have little to no personality. Being intelligent doesn't mean they have a personality.

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#94450: Sep 12th 2017 at 10:29:14 AM

[up] I thought being The Chessmaster meant you had a personality, that being manipulation.

I do like how such an absurd game had one of the darkest Mario villains, even if the Megabug doesn't count. Biggest Knight of Cerebus in the franchise (Possibly)

edited 12th Sep '17 10:52:40 AM by ReynTime250


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