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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#92602: Aug 18th 2017 at 10:52:21 AM

Alright, looks like Wasperus is being met with approval, so I'll write him up sometime later today. And yeah, as Ravok pointed out I do find it amusing to see that both manga qualifiers who made the cut are animal-themed baddies. I also find it amusing that the freaking Kangaroo is one of those qualifiers since like Overlord stated, he was a Stilt Man-tier joke villain in the mainstream comics. Granted he was handled a lot more believably than say, ramping up the edge and turning former lame D-lister Scavenger into a child rapist.

Meanwhile, I'll say yes to Professor Clover, and give a weaker yes to Arem. It's tempting to write him off as a Generic Doomsday Villain, but considering how horrific his endgame is, I think he just barely edges into monsterdom and is simply a Flat Character.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#92603: Aug 18th 2017 at 11:05:38 AM

FW (or anyone else), what say you about this?

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#92604: Aug 18th 2017 at 11:08:47 AM

Found an example on The Revenant that wasn't approved by the thread. I removed the example and sent a PM to the person who added it.

  • Complete Monster: Fitzgerald, to an inhuman extent. A dirty coward who only cares for his own survival and his own petty profit, willing to abandon anyone if that would save his own skin. He stays with Glass only because he would be handsomly rewarded for that, but soon decided to just stage his death and quickly return for his paycheck. When things get complicated, he kills Hugh's son without even blinking and on pure instinct. Then, when a few days later Bridger realises what really happend, Fitzgerald overpowers him, prepares to shoot him and pulls the trigger. If the gun were properly primed, he would also have killed Bridger. Later he runs away to re-enlist and thus gain legal immunity for his actions and revenge from Glass (there was a death penalty for killing a soldier), in the process killing an Army captain and scalps him to put the blame on the Arikaras. When finally captured and dying in Glass' hands, he uses his last breath to taunt him about how pointless the whole revenge was. Did we mention he's also casually and extremely racist?

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#92605: Aug 18th 2017 at 11:12:54 AM

ACW: Since these are still comic books... I dunno. The fact that both of these Japanese Spider-Men were referenced in the Spiderverse story makes me wonder if we should put Kangaroo and Wasperus on the main Spider-Man page (And it doesn't hurt that these are still comic villains, just from Japanese ones).

Still though, it may just be best if we put down a link to the Anime and Manga page like with the Marvel novels, video games, and Marvel Animation pages. Whatever works best for everyone.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#92606: Aug 18th 2017 at 11:21:19 AM

Oh, I was planning to put then on the main Spidey page either way. It's just whether to ONLY put them there and then link to Spidey from anime/manga, or to ALSO add the two to anime/manga.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#92607: Aug 18th 2017 at 11:35:07 AM

Yea to Wasperous and Clover. I'm... still undecided on Arem.

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#92608: Aug 18th 2017 at 11:36:13 AM

@92512 Maybe I'm getting lost in all of the discussion of Father and Ys villains, but I don't even see a nomination for Arun Filitt, and I don't know what they're from. Give me a post number and I'll flip back to it.

@92515 Honestly, I think you're emphasizing the Jerkass qualities a bit much for Walter. Yeah, nobody nice does that with a person's ashes, but that's peanuts when talking about this trope. That said, there's definitely enough there otherwise. Keep.

@92527 Hey, don't laugh - kangaroos can literally disembowel a person with a good kick. I mean, they're not as dangerous as a hippopotamus (which is a two-ton pile of muscle equally adept on land and water, with a jaw powerful enough to render a tree and incisors longer than your forearm), but seriously, those things are dangerous. That name's not nearly as ridiculous as you might think.

Oh, right, the villain. The problem is that, if we're talking about a heinous standard on par with the original Spider-Man, I don't think this guy makes the cut. All of the other qualifiers are there, but I can't help but think that this guy is overshadowed. Cut.

@92540 Well, in that case...

Darm: Hrm... I think that he's being slightly oversold as the worst villain of the franchise, but he does have a rather varied rap sheet and does stand distinct in the series compared to Gruda. Keep.

Dalles: The problem here is that it seems like a good chunk of his deeds either are paled by what Darm does or are done under Darm's direction. It also doesn't help that he shares screen time with the person you say he is second to. He strikes me as too overshadowed; cut.

Gruda: He's the one that strikes me as the actual worst of all the Ys villains. I vote keep.

Galbalan: The problem I have here is that most of this sounds like it's Offscreen Villainy, and it reads like he's barely in the plot as an active participant. This smacks heavily of Generic Doomsday Villain to me; cut.

Garland: Meanwhile, Garland strikes me as the driving force of the whole plot, and he gets much more characterization and detail of crimes. Keep.

@92558 I'm kinda leaning towards no; he sounds way too generic in this game (perhaps that's why it was rendered non-canon).

@92567 That version sounds closer to a keep... that said, I'm still kinda on the fence, as he still sounds a little more generic than the first version I voted on.

@92581 My problem is that, being a series that did have further installments that aren't being reviewed, we might have someone completely acting on orders. Thus, for as nasty as Wasperus is, he might need to be given a cut because all of his crimes actually fall on his superior's head. I vote cut until we can get a clearer picture of just who is to blame for what.

@92591 I think he's pretty cleanly overshadowed by several other villains, plus he sounds like a Generic Doomsday Villain. Cut.

@92597 Okay, there's a lot of Padding in that description. You need to give an overview, not a comprehensive file. Also, and I know this sounds harsh, but you need to clean up your grammar and syntax. I get that English is not your native tongue, but that was a bit difficult to read.

Between having a Freudian Excuse (yes, warped a bit by turning evil, but it still rings as one), plus the morality of the show being a bit muddied in the first place, I'm inclined to vote cut.

Also, almost done with the long-threatened deep dive into the Darkwing Duck comic. While I'll give a brief overview of several villains, most of them will be to demonstrate where the heinous standard lies, because many of them will be disqualified on various grounds (the two cases where this will be particularly clear are Quackerjack and Paddywhack). My last holdup is doing a close comparison of The Phantom Blot, who makes an appearance near the end of the Boom run of the comic.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#92609: Aug 18th 2017 at 11:50:06 AM

Filitt's from Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets, here.

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#92610: Aug 18th 2017 at 12:05:42 PM

Thing is, with Kangaroo, it's in-canon, but not 616. Not to mention, trying to kill thousands (millions?) is pretty bad.

UtterKoala Since: Mar, 2017
#92611: Aug 18th 2017 at 12:18:46 PM

[tup]Arem, Wasperous and Clover.

I would like to suggest this image of Cinder Fall for the Web Video section.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#92613: Aug 18th 2017 at 12:44:11 PM

Alright, here's Wasperus' writeup.

  • Spider-Man J: General Wasperus is the vicious, arrogant second-in-command of the mysterious Lord Beastius' forces, and the series' Starter Villain. Tasked with enslaving millions of Tokyo's citizens, Wasperus uses creations of his called Stealth Bees to do his bidding, which latch on to their hosts and turn them into prisoners of their own mind, aware and helpless while Wasperus is free to use them as soldiers and as slaves to carry out his bidding. He demonstrates this on Detective Flynn, a friend of Spider-Man's who he forces to fight to the death, smugly mocking Spider-Man about his predicament while stating that he picked this method of fighting Spider-Man solely for the sake of the look on his face when forced to kill a close ally. When Spider-Man hesitates to hurt Flynn, a bored Wasperus tries to butcher Spider-Man's young friends Harold and Jean-Marie before threatening to hurt other innocent civilians as well. After freeing Flynn from Wasperus' control and chasing him to his lair, the general fights the heroes himself and states that he intends to keep Spider-Man alive just long enough to live with the guilt of not saving millions of innocents from enslavement before squashing him like a bug. A dark, serious foe in an otherwise lighthearted and funny comic, Wasperus proves to be this continuity's nastiest villain by far.

And there it is. Since apparently the second comic only deals with Spider-Man facing one more of Beastius' minions before switching to adventures with Blade and the Fantastic Four, it seems likely that Wasperus' role as an active threat ended in the comic and thus, I'm fine with posting him.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#92614: Aug 18th 2017 at 1:50:00 PM

I notice something wrong. Kidnap 2017 apparently already has two candidates approved despite the discussion being scheduled for today.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#92615: Aug 18th 2017 at 1:57:48 PM

[up] ...Huh. Terry and Margo were approved back in May and the film apparently didn't premiere until the beginning of August.

Mind filling us in here, Username (the OP)? I'm not doubting the authenticity of the entry as the writeup seems consistent with the plot summary I've read, but I'm thinking something was proposed suspiciously early.

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#92616: Aug 18th 2017 at 2:01:10 PM

Got another suggestion from DemonDuckOfDoom.

What is the work?

City of the Dead is a 1960 horror movie and also the source of the quote, "superstition, fear, and jealousy". Back on topic ... Nan Barlow is attending lectures by her professor, Alan Driscoll (played by the late great Christopher Lee, albeit with a distinct American accent) on the history of witchcraft. In one of these lectures, Driscoll tells his class about Elizabeth Selwyn, an witch executed in the town of Whitewood, Massachusetts. So Nan decides to go there to write her thesis, unaware of the doom that awaits her there ...

Who is Elizabeth Selwyn? What has she done?

Elizabeth Selwyn is the Big Bad, the leader of a witch coven, burned at the stake for performing rituals that involve human sacrifice, apparently including infants. Unlike most accused witches, she was, by all evidence, guilty of the crimes she was accused of. As she burns, she and her servant Jethrow Keane curse the town's inhabitants, and she threatens to keep herself alive in the centuries to come with more sacrifices.

In the present day, on Candlemas Eve, Nan Barlow meets Selwyn, who now calls herself Mrs. Newless and is the owner of the Raven Inn, where she abuses a mute servant girl named Lottie. Nan does a little digging around, finds out some of the history behind the town, and discovers a chamber under the trap door in her room. She's grabbed by a couple robed men, who drag her to the altar where she's confronted by Selwyn, who reveals her true identity, and after thirteen chimes to the hour of midnight, drives a dagger through her chest.

About a month later, Patricia Russel (who lended Nan a book about witchcraft) goes looking for Nan to give her her locket back, as do Nan's brother, Dick, and her boyfriend, Bill. They all head to Whitewood, although Bill ends up in a car crash because of a hallucination of Selwyn (perhaps she projected it herself?). Dick finds a room at the Raven Inn and confronts Selwyn about what happened to her sister, and she just feeds him with more lies. Later on, Lottie tries to warn Dick about the truth by writing "The witches are here" on a piece of paper. Selwyn then orders Jethrow to kill her, so he chokes her to death.

Meanwhile, Patricia is being targeted as the next sacrifice (it's the Witch's Sabbath), and tries to call Dick to come help her, but ends up abducted by the cultists. Dick runs to the bookstore (where Patricia works), and finds her grandfather, the priest, hiding in a closet, who then tells him to use the shadow of a cross to kill the witches before dying for reasons unknown. Dick finds the wounded Bill, and drags him along to the sacrificial chamber and fights off the cultists on his way to the altar, and distracts them from Patricia by shooting at them when he gets there, which has no effect.

So Selwyn and the rest of the witches run to the graveyard to sacrifice her on the altar there, with Dick and Bill in tow. As Dick tries to hold off the cultists, he tells Bill to grab the cross nearby to cast over them, and Selwyn throws her dagger at his back, which mortally wounds him, but he manages to take out a few of them before succumbing to his injuries. Then Dick and Patricia run to the hotel to finish off Selwyn, who has died due to her failure to complete the sacrifice.

Mitigating factors?

Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Her exact relationship with Jethrow is left ambiguous. They could possibly be lovers, but really, he just does her dirty work when she doesn't want to do it herself.

Even Evil Has Standards? Nope.

Freudian Excuse? She could be forgiven for being angry with the townsfolk ... if she wasn't already a murdering witch before her death.

Generic Doomsday Villain? Nope, Faux Affably Evil. And her exact reasons for what she does are pretty obvious.

Heinous standard? This is one of those movies where the cultists who actually do more than just stand around and be cultist. She doesn't do anything alone, and in fact, there are a couple of prominent members who've contributed to the plot with their evil deeds. Like Jethrow, since he strangled Nan on her orders and had a hand in cursing the town, and Driscoll, who lead every major character there in the first place (and according to Selwyn, even more students have been to Whitewood. It's pretty safe to say that she's killed more than what was actually shown). But she's at the center of it all. She left the town as an Unholy Ground for centuries just so she could remain alive, and manipulated others into doing the same.

Offscreen Villainy? Yes, but what we see her doing and what we're told she's done is bad enough. If being responsible for only 3 onscreen (or semi-onscreen) murders is a disqualifier, well, then, I guess we should start debating Harry Powell as well. Not to sound arrogant. That's just how it is.

Played for Laughs? Not at all.

Regrets or remorse? Zilch.

Verdict

Seems like a keeper to me.

Coming up next ... a villain from a format I've never done an EP for.

EDIT: Guess that villain's not happening. I just don't know how to do his writeup, especially compared to other song-based villains. It's not that he doesn't display enough personality, it's just that I feel the EP would be rather weak and all too brief. Unlike the song in question. But if anyone would like to give me some pointers, I'd be grateful.

edited 18th Aug '17 4:32:24 PM by Stellarvore

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#92617: Aug 18th 2017 at 2:14:35 PM

[tup] Clover, that professor. As for Arem... I don't feel comfortable voting him up. If I had played the game myself, maybe I would have a better grasp on how he came across.

So, I myself just got back from the Dank Tower - which only today released in the UK. Yeah, no, Walter's awful. One of the easiest keeps I've ever seen. So hateable as well. He's really just an evil version of Matthew Mcconaughey, which I suppose some people might just say is Matthew Mcconaughey. What a prick. He also has a couple more Kick the Dog moments that would have bloated the EP. Ugh.

[tup] Selwyn. Her crimes onscreen establish enough of a pattern for me to be convinced.

Also, Ravok, Scraggle, I gotta ask: Did the two of you play all these Ys games? If so... DAYUM.

edited 18th Aug '17 2:25:38 PM by PolarPhantom

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#92619: Aug 18th 2017 at 3:25:28 PM

So, here's an effortpost. The book is Iron Man: Steel Terror. Similar to Global War, it's a "super thriller" for younger readers, taking place around Christmas; the author is Dean Wesley Smith, co-author of Carnage in New York and sole author of "Goblin's Revenge''. It's 140 pages, and quite a quick read (2 hours TOPS).

The story begins as a facility of Roxxon Corp. on Long Island is attacked by a Killer Robot (later revealed to have been Tess-One). The Avengers (this iteration led by Black Widow and featuring Iron Man, as well as Hank Pym (Giant Man version), Hercules, Crystal, Quicksilver, and Vision. Also, Jarvis is human (huh, apparently that's normally the case). Any way, the Avengers are called in and find out that what was stolen was stabilized synthetic vibranium, which can bond to any substance and theoretically make it invincible. The team thinks it through, and realizes there's only one candidate responsible, our candidate tonight.

Who is he and what has he done?

He is Ultron. You know, the Robotic Psychopath who wants to Kill All Humans. He re-programmed Tess-One (just Tess from now) to steal the vibranium, to make his robots (more of which later), Tess, and himself invincible.

Ultron meanwhile has had two androids impersonate wanted terrorist leaders and steal nuclear ore.

Widow (who I keep wanting to call Scarlet; either because of Scarlet Witch or Scarlett Johansson [lol] ) learns that the nuclear ore can be used to make neutron bombs. Other thefts of ore are stopped by the Avengers.

Long story short, Ultron's ultmate goal is to use robots (designed like him, only bigger) to carry Neutron Bombs into low orbit, killing all people but leaving everything else intact. He and his "robot children" would then rule.

After a tough battle, the Ultron clones and Ultron himself are destroyed (thanks to work by Hank Pym which made the vibranium unstable; Ultron should've coated his inside), Tess is submerged under ice, and the good guys win.

Heinous Standard?

No issues here. I don't think this novel's in continuity with any of the others, and even if it was, wanting to Kill All Humans is surely bad enough.

Disqualifiers?

Three things, two of which are easily dispatched with.

He's not a Generic Doomsday Villain. He demonstrates enough personality, and we get enough of his internal thoughts. He clearly relishes the thought of killing all humans.

Offscreen Villainy's not really an issue. He steals some nuclear ore, and the other thefts are only foiled due to the Avengers. But he says what he plans to do, so I think he's fine here.

Now, the one hang up, and the thing that originally kept me from proposing him: Ultron thinks of the robots "as his children", like "he was the brainchild of Hank Pym"; and patted a half-finished one "with affection". Disqualifying, right? Except, during the final confrontation, here's his final taunt to Iron Man:

"As soon as I finish you off...I'll have Tess-One finish off your friends. You have annoyed me a great deal by destroying my robots. It will now take me extra time before I can destroy the human race."
He then opens his mouth and laughs, allowing Iron Man to land the killing blow. Considering that he's only "annoyed...a great deal" and laughingly taunts Iron Man about destroying humanity, I'm now inclined to looks at this as not disqualifying; maybe he seems them more as extensions of himself?

Final Verdict?

I'd say he does enough to subvert (?) Even Evil Has Loved Ones and thus counts.

edited 18th Aug '17 3:30:08 PM by ACW

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#92620: Aug 18th 2017 at 3:33:33 PM

Eh, we see Selwyn attempt one sacrifice. [tup] her.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#92621: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:13:35 PM

Alright...........Since Clover got an unanimous [tup]......I think I'll try to do a writeup for him........But too bad that when it comes to writing a draft for a CM, It came across as a crappy writing but I'll see what I can do

  • Kaitou Joker: Professor Clover at first may seem to be a standard burglar with trying to obtain the treasure and tried to trick and get rid of the young Joker. However, He manages to be worse in the next episodes by disguising himself as a general in a certain kingdom and imprison the real general to trick the princess so that he could obtain the crystal that could activate the secret weapon that could destroy the city in whole blast due to his desire to get one of the orbs for powering his staff. It was also revealed that he's the one behind the murders of Queen and Spade parents─The former got her own country destroyed and mentally scarred while the latter ended up being adopted by a rich family but ended up getting abused with his foster brother─just because he wanted to obtain the rare treasure related to time. And it was also revealed 50 Years before the main story, He was a certain agent of an unknown federation who tries to steal Pandora treasure and when he obtained it, he plans to use it to threaten the Pandora civilian that if they didn't submit to federation, He will destroy the whole country in one blast with this treasure. It was also revealed that he was the one who destroyed Shadow Joker's village so that he could capture his time manipulating witch twin sister and after he captures her, He mind controls her so that not only he could steal some valuable treasure, But also wounding his mortal enemy Silver Heart. and when Joker and Shadow tries to save her in the final episode, Clover threatens the duo that he will drop an acid to Shadow's sister and in the same episode, It was also revealed that he sacrifices his minions so that he could kill Queen and Spade. A psychopath who tried to obtain his goal in dirty ways, Clover manages to be one of the most dangerous adversaries that Joker has encountered.

Sorry if my write-up for Professor Clover is crap. I'm fine if someone's wanting to do his own write-up but I tried at my best to do it. Anything that I missed from his original effortpost or no? Or is there anything lacking in his own write-up? I'll try to listen

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#92622: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:28:01 PM

[up][up]And succeed in one murder. Technically.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#92623: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:34:17 PM

[tup] Selwyn. What happens to Jethrow and Driscoll by the way?

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#92624: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:41:49 PM

I'll give Arem a [tup]. He's definitely light on characterisation, but I think he gets just enough to edge out of being a Generic Doomsday Villain.

Also [tup] to Elizabeth Selwyn.

edited 18th Aug '17 4:43:06 PM by MGD107

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#92625: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:43:34 PM

[up][up]They're both killed when Bill casts the shadow of the cross over them.


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